EU vote

Fatpete said:
yet you don't say why

Nimble said:
It fails before it even begins! The EU is not about pooling money and resources. The EU budget is tiny compared with national budgets. It's primarily about about making a large market (although it has grown beyond that), and building the regulatory framework necessary to facilitate that... something that in no way resembles a bunch of families setting up a gym together.

macroth said:This is off some Facebook post, but I basically agree with it. I think it's a more solid basis for discussion than if's and maybe's and scaremongering on either side of the debate.


"What did the EU ever do for us?

Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade;

structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline;

clean beaches and rivers;

cleaner air;

lead free petrol;

restrictions on landfill dumping;

a recycling culture;

cheaper mobile charges;

cheaper air travel;

improved consumer protection and food labelling;

a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives;

better product safety;

single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance;

break up of monopolies;

Europe-wide patent and copyright protection;

no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market;

price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone;

freedom to travel, live and work across Europe;

funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad;

access to European health services;

labour protection and enhanced social welfare;

smoke-free workplaces;

equal pay legislation;

holiday entitlement;

the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime;

strongest wildlife protection in the world;

improved animal welfare in food production;

EU-funded research and industrial collaboration;

EU representation in international forums;

bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO;

EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty;

European arrest warrant;

cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence;

European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa;

support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond;

investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.

All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed.

It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980.

Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these. We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value. We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multi-polar global future.

Simon Sweeney,
Lecturer in international political economy, University of York"

Nimble said:
It's primarily about about making a large market (although it has grown beyond that), and building the regulatory framework necessary to facilitate that... .

macroth said:This is off some Facebook post, but I basically agree with it. I think it's a more solid basis for discussion than if's and maybe's and scaremongering on either side of the debate.


"What did the EU ever do for us?

macroth said:

a ban on growth hormones

Steve said:
If the EU had stuck to this i suspect almost nobody would be arguing against it.

Nimble said:
I doubt it. They consider free movement of people one of the cornerstones of the single market ("goods, capital, services, and people")... Rightly or wrongly, anger at open immigration is one of the biggest draws for the Leave camp

Nimble said:
I doubt it. They consider free movement of people one of the cornerstones of the single market ("goods, capital, services, and people")... Rightly or wrongly, anger at open immigration is one of the biggest draws for the Leave camp

macroth said:Saying all the results of European cooperation would have happened anyway strikes me as a bit odd. What would be the incentive? Where else have countries cooperated to the same level without a framework to do so?
People are angry because too many Italians and Belgians coming to the UK?

Nimble said:
even countries like Russia, China, as well as much of Asia, etc. have all been peaceful since WWII.

Nimble said:

The most ridiculous one is the EU's "greatest achievements"... even countries like Russia, China, as well as much of Asia, etc. have all been peaceful since WWII. All places with a history of a lot bloodshed in previous centuries! Attributing the peace to the EU is crazy. Much of Europe wasn't in the EU for a lot of that time! And "centuries of bloodshed"? Much of Europe was pretty peaceful for most of the 1800s. Amazing this guy is allowed to teach at a University.