EU vote
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| aaron_lohan |  | ... | 01-06-2016 @ 10:51 |
 Hasn't always been a bench press specialist Member 44, 1907 posts SQ 252.5, BP 220, DL 210682.5 kgs @ 83kgs Eq | Steve said: But does it need to be? Does free trade actually require free movement of people? No, the Eu has free trade agreements with many countries that don't require free movement of people. | ||
| aaron_lohan | | ... | 01-06-2016 @ 10:54 |
Hasn't always been a bench press specialist Member 44, 1907 posts SQ 252.5, BP 220, DL 210682.5 kgs @ 83kgs Eq | Post Edited: 01.06.2016 @ 10:59 AM by aaron_lohan You could form a strong argument against remaining in the EU with the four letter word TTIP. If that was the only argument it would be worthwhile.Some economists say we are better off in the EU, however these are being paid by the government who want us to stay in. We would make huge net savings by getting out- maybe not the £350 million a week but at least £150 million a week. | ||
| aaron_lohan | | ... | 01-06-2016 @ 10:59 |
Hasn't always been a bench press specialist Member 44, 1907 posts SQ 252.5, BP 220, DL 210682.5 kgs @ 83kgs Eq | The EU's biggest issue if you don't count the corruption and the ECB's bullying of Greece and other debtor nations, is the fact that the EC consists of unelected bureaucrats who can make laws that have to fit everyone on the continent. So a law may be suitable for the potato farmer in Latvia but not for the businessman in Zurich, but that law must be applied equally to both. | ||
| little_a | | ... | 01-06-2016 @ 11:00 |
 still a devious weightlifting bastard Member 43, 14374 posts | aaron_lohan said:Some economists say we are better off in the EU, however these are being paid by the government who want us to stay in. It isn't just the government though Aaron, but the main opposition to the government http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35743994. When do these boys ever agree on anything? | ||
| Steve | | ... | 01-06-2016 @ 11:22 |
nothing to hide, please follow my life on webcam Member 255, 3732 posts | little_a said: It isn't just the government though Aaron, but the main opposition to the government http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35743994. When do these boys ever agree on anything? They may agree, but I still can't say I trust either lot! | ||
| little_a | | ... | 01-06-2016 @ 11:43 |
still a devious weightlifting bastard Member 43, 14374 posts | Steve said: They may agree, but I still can't say I trust either lot! Agree with that  | ||
| Nimble | | ... | 02-06-2016 @ 02:30 |
 woefully weak Member 4748, 1506 posts SQ 157, BP 133, DL 260550.0 kgs @ 104kgs UnEq | macroth said: So you say Russia/the USSR has been as peaceful as, say, France and Germany? Where did I say that? You're putting words into my mouth.

“Russia” has been peaceful (domestically) over that timeframe. You’re not comparing like for like. By your reckoning, maybe we should be talking about Northern Ireland, and the Falklands too? Or you want to include the USSR's foreign wars? In that case neither the UK nor France has been peaceful, by any measure. macroth said: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Europe I don't know how you define "much of Europe" and "pretty peaceful", but a few things did happen in the 1800's. Looking at a list like that is not helpful. Perhaps you know what Europe looked like for much of that time. Unification of Italy and Germany didn't happen until 61/71 respectively; most of the conflicts listed are really regional spats. Look at a chart of death as a result of war/conflict adjusted for population over the last two or three centuries. The 1700s were very bloody, then it basically flatlines between 1817 and 1914, then you get two massive peaks due to the two world wars, and then it basically flatlines again after 1945. macroth said: If you look at that list you may notice something about post-WWII European conflicts. They don't usually, if at all, involve EU/EEC Member States. Maybe forming strong economic and political ties with the stated goal of avoiding armed conflict has something to do with it, maybe not. If you looked at some other lists you might notice that no two democratic counties have ever gone to war, either..* Maybe it's just democracy that's to be thanked? You'll also know from the pdf above that war-related death has declined massively across the whole globe since WWII. So maybe we should be thanking the USA's for its military superiority? Or the UN? Or maybe nuclear weapons? Or, like you say (very wisely)... Maybe not. Either way, giving the EU credit is plain silly. *Depending on how you define "democracy" and "war”, of course! Look up “democratic peace theory” | ||
| Nimble | | ... | 02-06-2016 @ 02:49 |
woefully weak Member 4748, 1506 posts SQ 157, BP 133, DL 260550.0 kgs @ 104kgs UnEq | little_a said: Nimble said: even countries like Russia, China, as well as much of Asia, etc. have all been peaceful since WWII. What? Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, Afganistan (multiple times), India/Pakistan, Iraq/ Iran, brake up of the USSR into bickering factions, China is, well, China, the Balkans....... Really peaceful  By population. Japan has been peaceful over that time period. China might be "well, China", (whatever you mean by that?!) but it has been peaceful since 1949 (as far as wars are concerned), discounting minor spats with Vietnam and India. (I don't include its excursion into Korea, by that token the UK, France etc lose any claim to peace) India, likewise, has been peaceful by any meaningful definition. Again, it's so-called wars over that time period were really skirmishes resulting in at most a few thousand deaths -- not nearly as bloody as The Troubles, measured on a per-capita basis. Between Japan, China and India you already have enough people to justify my claim that "much of Asia" has been peaceful. Clearly I don't think all or most of Asia was peaceful. Pakistan and Afghanistan are obvious examples. Why bring up Iraq and Iran? I didn't mention the Middle East. The "break up of the USSR" is a different question. We're talking about war. Besides, it was, all told, remarkable peaceful. Counting conflicts/wars is a very poor metric. Look at deaths per capita as a result of conflict. Down worldwide since WWII. Its a global phenomenon, certainly not restricted to EU countries. (I don't think this demonstrates anything, btw, other than that giving the credit for general peace in Western European to the EU is tenuous, at best!). | ||
| Fatpete | | ... | 02-06-2016 @ 07:06 |
 Hyper obese Pete Member 70, 17891 posts SQ 322.5, BP 205, DL 300827.5 kgs @ 133kgs Eq | aaron_lohan said: No, the Eu has free trade agreements with many countries that don't require free movement of people. Then why do Norway and Switzerland have it ? There must be a difference between their free trade agreement and the others. Otherwise it becomes inexplicable. | ||
| aaron_lohan | | ... | 02-06-2016 @ 08:54 |
Hasn't always been a bench press specialist Member 44, 1907 posts SQ 252.5, BP 220, DL 210682.5 kgs @ 83kgs Eq | Here is the Peru-EU trade agreement http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/press/index.cfm?id=691 http://www.ecipe.org/app/uploads/2014/12/european-union-policy... The difference between this free trade agreement and the one we have now is that it doesn't include freedom of movement. You have to realise that there is a difference between a single market and free trade agreement. We have a single market which includes freedom of movement and Peru have a free trade agreement. | ||
| ChrisMcCarthy |  | ... | 02-06-2016 @ 09:05 |
Lost his pen, then found his pen. #phew Member 4899, 2956 posts | What's wrong with Freedom of Movement? | ||
| aaron_lohan | | ... | 02-06-2016 @ 09:14 |
Hasn't always been a bench press specialist Member 44, 1907 posts SQ 252.5, BP 220, DL 210682.5 kgs @ 83kgs Eq | Post Edited: 02.06.2016 @ 09:14 AM by aaron_lohan ChrisMcCarthy said:What's wrong with Freedom of Movement? It leads to too many people coming to this country, which means fewer jobs for British people, a huge strain on services such as the NHS, the education system, housing. In my area of work I see a lot of people who are homeless and can't get properties because the demand far outstrips the supply. Immigration isn't bad, uncontrolled immigration is. | ||
| ChrisMcCarthy | | ... | 02-06-2016 @ 09:16 |
Lost his pen, then found his pen. #phew Member 4899, 2956 posts | Isn't that just a symptom of being a "better" place to live, though? | ||
| aaron_lohan | | ... | 02-06-2016 @ 09:21 |
Hasn't always been a bench press specialist Member 44, 1907 posts SQ 252.5, BP 220, DL 210682.5 kgs @ 83kgs Eq | ChrisMcCarthy said:Isn't that just a symptom of being a "better" place to live, though? Absolutely. We did it in the 70s when brickies went to Germany. | ||
| aaron_lohan | | ... | 02-06-2016 @ 09:21 |
Hasn't always been a bench press specialist Member 44, 1907 posts SQ 252.5, BP 220, DL 210682.5 kgs @ 83kgs Eq | Or should I say West Germany. | ||
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