Are Politics Banned on Here?
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| Fatpete |  | ... | 30-10-2015 @ 07:07 |
 Hyper obese Pete Member 70, 17922 posts SQ 322.5, BP 205, DL 300827.5 kgs @ 133kgs Eq | aaron_lohan said:Hoard food, buy gold, arm yourself the end of the world is coming. Where do you stash your gold Aaron ? What is your weapon of choice ? | ||
| aaron_lohan | | ... | 30-10-2015 @ 09:19 |
 Hasn't always been a bench press specialist Member 44, 1907 posts SQ 252.5, BP 220, DL 210682.5 kgs @ 83kgs Eq | Fatpete said: Where do you stash your gold Aaron ? What is your weapon of choice ? In the underground bunker ive built for the end of the world, catapult- it requires no form of energy other than provided by your arms and hands. | ||
| WILLSAN | | ... | 30-10-2015 @ 16:22 |
 Trump will get another four years Member 126, 16707 posts SQ 160, BP 110, DL 225495.0 kgs @ 75kgs UnEq | luki said: In Communist Manefesto Chapter Bourgeois and Proletariat Marx says that the whole government and its institutions are geared to protect the dominant class. He called them the Bourgeois Industrialist Billionaires or Capitalists, but today the Speculative Banker/Investors would fill that role as the super rich. Each capitalists goal is to monopolise wealth. Accepting this (as the first Marx influenced article must) it's natural for the political forces to defend what they know in the Destructive cycle, so they can be destroyed and replaced in the new creative cycle. I don't believe the political class thought out the bank guarantee, they just did what the superrich told them to (the Anglo Irish foi requests in Ireland certainly enforce this suspicion.) I read the link. It more or less paraphrases the Marx chapter mentioned above except it takes out the sociology (discussing the effects of capitalism on the masses) and adds a lot of guff about the "trickle down effect," that the ever growing wealth divide and effects of austerity disprove for me. Sorry lets rewind. You are quoting Marxist theory to me but I'm not clear on your actual position. You originally seemed to be arguing that the bailout was a good thing as it prevented the 'creative destruction' (we disagree that the article is Marx influenced, as 'creative destruction' is used extensively in Austrian economics - it is not a term exclusive to Marxist theory whatsoever). But then above you say it was an effort by the government to protect the 'bourgeois industrialist billionaires' (socialist theory does have a flair for the dramatic phraseology) which would infer that it was a bad thing? Apologies if I am misunderstanding. I can address the other points but I don't know if I we are talking about the banking crisis or Marxism vs capitalism. I would argue, two totally different discussions. | ||
| little_a | | ... | 30-10-2015 @ 17:57 |
 still a devious weightlifting bastard Member 43, 14374 posts | aaron_lohan said: catapult- it requires no form of energy other than provided by your arms and hands. You need a crow bar for when you are on apocalyptic field trips. As Max Brooks said "A crow bar is an essential weapon and can also be used as a tool" | ||
| luki |  | ... | 30-10-2015 @ 19:13 |
Avatar Member 5517, 1538 posts SQ 160, BP 165, DL 201526.0 kgs @ 110kgs UnEq | My opinion is that Marx was the first to document capitalism. He wrote the blueprint of how to be a good capitalist as a critique. That doesn't alter the formula and many people have used his blueprint to inform themselves on how to be a successful capitalist (including the guy in your article.) If you look on the wiki for the Austrian the contributers are also of the opinion that he expands on the Marxist analysis of capitalism. So Marx is the accidental parent of neo-liberalism and earlier versions of capitalism as well as communism. Personally I agree with Marxist analysis of capitalism inc creative destruction. Its s**t for people. I think communism is the same as capitalism. Both put the economy at the centre of society and thereby dehumanise individuals turning them into economic factors of production. Sorry I am not clearer. I don't often articulate my political opinions. Did you read the analysis of path dependency?-) | ||
| WILLSAN | | ... | 30-10-2015 @ 21:49 |
Trump will get another four years Member 126, 16707 posts SQ 160, BP 110, DL 225495.0 kgs @ 75kgs UnEq | luki said:My opinion is that Marx was the first to document capitalism. He wrote the blueprint of how to be a good capitalist as a critique. That doesn't alter the formula and many people have used his blueprint to inform themselves on how to be a successful capitalist (including the guy in your article.) If you look on the wiki for the Austrian the contributers are also of the opinion that he expands on the Marxist analysis of capitalism. So Marx is the accidental parent of neo-liberalism and earlier versions of capitalism as well as communism. Personally I agree with Marxist analysis of capitalism inc creative destruction. Its s**t for people. I think communism is the same as capitalism. Both put the economy at the centre of society and thereby dehumanise individuals turning them into economic factors of production. Sorry I am not clearer. I don't often articulate my political opinions. Did you read the analysis of path dependency?-) No man! Look up adam smith. He is the father of economic thought. Regardless, I really don't think a bank's economic forecaster would really have Marx in mind when writing a report! Not that it matters really. I couldn't read the article, it was pay to view. Although by the title I'm guessing you might think I'm a defender of neoliberalism. I'm not! And you didn't answer my question. Bailout, yay or nay? | ||
| luki | | ... | 31-10-2015 @ 11:20 |
Avatar Member 5517, 1538 posts SQ 160, BP 165, DL 201526.0 kgs @ 110kgs UnEq | Post Edited: 31.10.2015 @ 11:31 AM by luki I don't think you heard my answer. The bailout was wrong because it put economics ahead of society. Any situation where this happens is bad government. State communism or capitalism its all the same effect. Its all Marx reducing humans to an existence of toil and drudgery as economic factors of production. Economics is part of society not the other way around. Society is first. | ||
| WILLSAN | | ... | 31-10-2015 @ 15:34 |
Trump will get another four years Member 126, 16707 posts SQ 160, BP 110, DL 225495.0 kgs @ 75kgs UnEq | luki said:I don't think you heard my answer. The bailout was wrong because it put economics ahead of society. Any situation where this happens is bad government. State communism or capitalism its all the same effect. Its all Marx reducing humans to an existence of toil and drudgery as economic factors of production. Economics is part of society not the other way around. Society is first. dude you need to read someone else other than marx lol. sounds depressing as hell. I have a copy of the communist manifesto on my bedside table waiting to be read and you are not selling it to me! economics is society. people group together to trade goods and services. without that trade there is no society. to try and split the two is a fools game. communism and capitalism are as similar as slavery and freedom are. communism is the ideology of slavery whilst capitalism is just what people do when the are left to do what they want to do. you have obviously read socialist theory. have you read any counter views to that? I often think socialists and libertarians have some similar aims and values but the socialists just havent worked out the right way of achieving them yet.  | ||
| Rick | | ... | 31-10-2015 @ 17:15 |
 I am a bench-only guy Member 3, 10036 posts SQ 185, BP 175, DL 235595.0 kgs @ 140kgs UnEq Administrator | But capitalism isn't what people instinctively do at all. The idea that a person can own thousands of acres, say, isn't an instinctive one. You own a mountain? Like f**k you do. Left-libertarians have some interesting things to say. Mondragon-style cooperatives are a very healthy-looking model. | ||
| WILLSAN | | ... | 31-10-2015 @ 18:18 |
Trump will get another four years Member 126, 16707 posts SQ 160, BP 110, DL 225495.0 kgs @ 75kgs UnEq | owning mountains maybe straying from the principle a little bit? right back from the dawn of civilization man has traded privately owned goods by barter or by different mediums of exchange. that is capitalism! it is what we do to survive and progress. | ||
| samue1son | | ... | 31-10-2015 @ 18:38 |
 Member 4416, 1371 posts SQ 210, BP 175, DL 240625.0 kgs @ 122kgs UnEq | Has anybody else here read, The Ragged-trousered Philanthropists? (Robert Tressell). | ||
| JonA81 | | ... | 31-10-2015 @ 19:46 |
 Member 2216, 2243 posts | samue1son said:Has anybody else here read, The Ragged-trousered Philanthropists? (Robert Tressell). Yeah, as relevant now as ever. This is good for anyone with a short attention span. http://www.avine.co.uk/great-money-trick/ | ||
| WILLSAN | | ... | 31-10-2015 @ 20:50 |
Trump will get another four years Member 126, 16707 posts SQ 160, BP 110, DL 225495.0 kgs @ 75kgs UnEq | JonA81 said: Yeah, as relevant now as ever. This is good for anyone with a short attention span. http://www.avine.co.uk/great-money-trick/ lol im sure its a good story but really? this is why economics should be taught in schools as standard. if anyone thinks this is how a free market operates please go and read a basic economics book as quickly as possible. there is a 'money trick' but it isnt performed by capitalism, it is performed by government. it is called 'inflation'. | ||
| luki | | ... | 01-11-2015 @ 22:52 |
Avatar Member 5517, 1538 posts SQ 160, BP 165, DL 201526.0 kgs @ 110kgs UnEq | samue1son said:Has anybody else here read, The Ragged-trousered Philanthropists? (Robert Tressell). It's a super book. | ||
| billynomates | | ... | 01-11-2015 @ 23:53 |
Member 4923, 1795 posts | WILLSAN said: Bailout, yay or nay? Speaking as an Irishman, our bailout was in my view a necessary evil. The alternative of letting the banks fail, although just, would have caused too much social upheaval. Austerity seems to have worked fairly well, and things seem to have picked up nicely in the last few years. I just hope the banks, government and regulators can learn from this mess and make sure it never happens again. | ||
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