How much protein you actually need?
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| Rick |  | ... | 30-10-2007 @ 18:46 |
 I am a bench-only guy Member 3, 10035 posts SQ 185, BP 175, DL 235595.0 kgs @ 140kgs UnEq Administrator | Post Edited: 30.10.2007 @ 18:47 PM I am, of course, not in any sense a professional nutritionist, just somebody who's read fairly widely. I keep hoping Jim'll come and set us straight... however, I do know quite a lot more about this stuff than you'd guess to look at me (I know what to do, just don't do it!). So, my understanding:I've never heard anyone (else) suggest that protein doesn't have calorie value unless you're eating almost nothing else, as Hayden suggests. I believe it's the case that your body will tend to burn other sources preferentially where it can, but that's not the same thing. What I think posters (other than Joni) have been getting at is the saying "a calorie is a calorie" is, well, bo***cks. As Hayden pointed out, the "calorie value" of food is pretty much arrived to by setting fire to it and seeing how much heat comes out, and it's clearly a vast simplification to suppose that will relate to how much energy your body will obtain from it. It was introduced as an approximation because we don't really know how this DOES work, even now, and this has the advantage of simplicity. It's been aroudn so long that some "nutritionists" have started believing it. All the experiments which have been done, eg by feeding volunteers the same number of cals as 90% protein, 90% carbs, 90% fat for different groups demonstrate pretty clearly that a calorie is NOT just a calorie - and of those three options, carbs make you fatter, or get thinner slower. Probably more important, though, are the other effects of different macronutrients on the body, rather than pure energy. In particular, your body has a hard time storing fat in the absence of carbs (because you are low on insulin), protein has a much higher thermal effect (metabolism) than other macronutrients, and of course is much more prone to build muscle tissue, and fat and protein (other than very fast-burners like whey isolate) are good at creating satiety, whereas carbs tend to make you hungry due to blood sugar rebound. All of this fits my own experience with carb control, back when I used to have some discipline; and of course, bodybuilders, who are the experts at body composition changes and carefully monitor their own results and those of their peers, now almost universally time and cut their carbs to lean out. EDIT: and of course Little A and Pork Pie are quite right. I'm complete proof that *thinking about* what you should be eating, as opposed to eg just not eating a s**tload of junk while you think about it, is not helpful  . | ||
| Hayden | | ... | 30-10-2007 @ 18:51 |
 memories , like the corners of my mind .... Member 49, 2298 posts SQ 200, BP 132.5, DL 220552.5 kgs @ 123kgs UnEq | Good post. I have talked to jim about this before, would like him to come put his 2 cents on it. | ||
| Joni | | ... | 30-10-2007 @ 18:55 |
 left the country satisfied Member 10, 19241 posts SQ 240, BP 150, DL 270660.0 kgs @ 107kgs UnEq | i have not said that calorie = calorie, i have only said that the difference is so small that it is more confusing than helping for most to think about it. I asked for some quantifiable measures, but no one has any. Also, i think in public health discussion whole issue has done far more damage than good, and the short low carb craze proved it. And aye, i too think the whole idea that protein doesnt have much of an energy input cant be right... | ||
| little_a | | ... | 30-10-2007 @ 19:21 |
 still a devious weightlifting bastard Member 43, 14374 posts | Originally posted by HVince... Why do people warn of possible kidney damage with a prolonged high protein diet?!?!?!? excess urea. Yeah! Thats what happened to me. I ate so much protein I lost a kidney. Must of s**t it out in my sleep at some point. Why do I never listen?  | ||
| Sparrow | | ... | 30-10-2007 @ 19:29 |
 always lookIng for the extra UT2 work. Member 9, 18279 posts SQ 210, BP 167.5, DL 260637.5 kgs @ 103kgs UnEq | Nice post above Rick. What quantifiable measures are you expecting Joni? As lots have already mentioned, fats and carbs are the body's preferred energy source and are more easily stored as bodyfat than protein is. Protein builds muscle, so eat lots of it. How much - more than you think. You said you've done high protein, but I don't think you have. On a 5000 calorie diet if you have the highest % of your cals coming from proteins (which is what most bodybuilders (who, as Rick mentions are the best experts at muscle/fat manipulation) recommend) lets say 40% (with the other 60% coming from carbs and fats (let's say 30% from each)), this equates to 500 grams of protein per day. If you are saying as a vegan that that would be very easy for you to consume, day in day out, I just can't see it. Not when you you can't eat "the best" protein sources (as measured by BV or PER or whatever) such as meat, fish and poultry. I also don't think the calorie is not a calorie difference is so small it isn't worth thinking about. As Rob says, you eat 5000cals a day in lard, someone else eat it in sugar, and I'll eat it in Whey protein. Who'll look the best after x number of weeks? Obviously this takes it to the extreme but the principle is there and a few hundred/thousand cals x however many days x however many weeks x however many months etc. will make a big difference in the long run. Aslo you mention health risks associated with protein, yet out of all the macros protein, in my opinion is by far the safest, especially when you consider health risks associated with obesity, which is caused by consuming too many calories, usually coming from fatty foods and/or high high glycaemic index carbs. Trans fats, sugars etc. are far more harmful than any protein is with regards to health, so this one doesn't cut it. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not anti-carbs, or anti-fat, I just think as Rick and PorkiePie mentioned, protein should be your number 1 choice. I also agree thast this stuff needn't be over-complicated, that's why I said in my first post to just go apes**t with the protein and make sure you eat enough calories. Don't hate on protein Joni, embrace it, become its best friend. You never know, it may just help you achieve your new body composition goals | ||
| Hayden | | ... | 30-10-2007 @ 19:35 |
memories , like the corners of my mind .... Member 49, 2298 posts SQ 200, BP 132.5, DL 220552.5 kgs @ 123kgs UnEq | Going off topic a bit here but what did you do for your dissertation millsy? | ||
| Sparrow | | ... | 30-10-2007 @ 19:37 |
always lookIng for the extra UT2 work. Member 9, 18279 posts SQ 210, BP 167.5, DL 260637.5 kgs @ 103kgs UnEq | Post Edited: 30.10.2007 @ 19:40 PM Protein consumption amongst different groups of athletes  | ||
| Hayden | | ... | 30-10-2007 @ 19:40 |
memories , like the corners of my mind .... Member 49, 2298 posts SQ 200, BP 132.5, DL 220552.5 kgs @ 123kgs UnEq | loool seriously??? I suspected it as the way you typed out your last post was exactly like the dissertations i have read etc.. | ||
| little_a | | ... | 30-10-2007 @ 20:02 |
still a devious weightlifting bastard Member 43, 14374 posts | Originally posted by jonnymills... Protein consumption amongst different groups of athletes And you call C programmers f**king Geeks?  | ||
| Sparrow | | ... | 30-10-2007 @ 20:13 |
always lookIng for the extra UT2 work. Member 9, 18279 posts SQ 210, BP 167.5, DL 260637.5 kgs @ 103kgs UnEq | Yeah seriously Hayden, but TBH it was a bit crap as I did the 11000 words in 2 days Andy, c*** programmers are f****** geeks. I know, my mate is one. I'm talking about food, food is good, hard lads eat lots of good protein to get to Ripponden like I do | ||
| Sparrow | | ... | 30-10-2007 @ 20:17 |
always lookIng for the extra UT2 work. Member 9, 18279 posts SQ 210, BP 167.5, DL 260637.5 kgs @ 103kgs UnEq | Also most of my food knowledge (which really isn't that great), like Ricks, is simply from doing lots of reading (which I haven't done too much of in the last few years TBH). I like John Berardi, PHD in nutrition and gets big and/or ripped with ease and has written lots on the subject. If you haven't go to t-nation and read all his articles, starting on page 6 and working towards page 1 - they're very good indeed. | ||
| Joni | | ... | 30-10-2007 @ 20:24 |
left the country satisfied Member 10, 19241 posts SQ 240, BP 150, DL 270660.0 kgs @ 107kgs UnEq | hey hey HEY! Lets not twist words, i am not anti protein, i am anti protein hysteria, protein overemphasis, supplement company claims about how much protein you should use - i am very much pro protein, and also happen to believe the studies published about benefits of higher protein consumption compared to non-active or non-strength training people, but at the same time believe the results about excess protein consumption being useless. And since there are health issues such as kidney issues, calcium loss/osteoporosis then why would anyone go totally overboard with it? And i am not even ranting about the health effects to the animals in the animal abuse industry (because for the purposes of this discussion doesnt make much difference if the source is plant or animal protein, apart from the calcium loss issue?). You cant compare excess use of protein to worst possible dietary intakes of carbs, high intake of healthy carbs doesnt have any negative health effects so you should compare it to that instead of eating crisps or something. hey as a sidenote, isnt it funny that several of you use strong words to emphasise how different the energy utilisation of protein is, but its so difficult to get any data on it? i cant fing anything on the net, but i might be using wrong keywords? we have a queue of people waiting for Jim to tip in | ||
| paul_richards | | ... | 30-10-2007 @ 20:29 |
 I personally prefer the stiffest possible. Member 158, 3110 posts SQ 170, BP 107.5, DL 222.5500.0 kgs @ 67.4kgs UnEq | Remember that old fella Newton, anyone remember the first law of thermodynamics. The total engery in the universe remains constant Therefore if I eat 200g of protein, I have consumed ~800cals. Therefore if its not used for repair, it will get converted to fat and stored. If it was p1ssed out we would have solved the obesity crisis. | ||
| paul_richards | | ... | 30-10-2007 @ 20:32 |
I personally prefer the stiffest possible. Member 158, 3110 posts SQ 170, BP 107.5, DL 222.5500.0 kgs @ 67.4kgs UnEq | oh and protein is 20% thermic. Therefore 20% of protein calories are used to digest it, so you only get effectively 80% of the cals. ok your body will probably take those cals from bodyfat, what I am saying is if you consume 100cals your net energy will be what you had before + 80cals. carbs are about 10% thermic and fats I think about 3% thermic Paul | ||
| Hayden | | ... | 30-10-2007 @ 20:32 |
memories , like the corners of my mind .... Member 49, 2298 posts SQ 200, BP 132.5, DL 220552.5 kgs @ 123kgs UnEq | Originally posted by paul_richards... Remember that old fella Newton, anyone remember the first law of thermodynamics. The total engery in the universe remains constant Therefore if I eat 200g of protein, I have consumed ~800cals. Therefore if its not used for repair, it will get converted to fat and stored. If it was p1ssed out we would have solved the obesity crisis. Do you not s**t?? | ||