Uncontrolable knee cave in squats
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| Terminator |  | Uncontrolable knee cave in squats | 24-03-2014 @ 18:45 |
 jerking is obviously great, Member 2521, 4722 posts SQ 235, BP 160, DL 290685.0 kgs @ 111kgs UnEq | I have always found that my knees cave in coming out the hole on squats instinctively. This didn't concern me initially, but I have recently attempted to rectify it, and it is largely uncontrollable when the weight gets above circa 70%. Additionally the bar speed (even with 100 kg) is slower when I consciously push my knees out. The first video is 190 x 5 (3 sets) with no attempt to push my knees out. Skip to 2:00 for work set The 2nd video is 160 for triples with my best efforts to force my knees out. Bar speed is slow for the weight, and my knees still twitch in. Workset at 1:45 The 3rd video is the most recent, 170 x 5 (3 sets), with me trying to push my knees out, but to no avail. Workset at 1:05 What I'm asking is, is knee cave inherently dangerous? I see Olympic lifters employing this technique to exit the hole, which is in contrast to the majority of powerlifters. Until now I expected fixing my knee cave to bring gains and increase efficiency, but it seems the opposite is true as I lose a lot of power when I push them out. | ||
| Fazc | | ... | 24-03-2014 @ 19:10 |
 Sports an extremely muscular arse. Member 38, 6253 posts | What was your motivation to fix the knee cave. Did it hurt? Don't know if it's a good or bad thing myself, never had the issue but if it didn't hurt that's probably a good sign right? | ||
| jrepp | | ... | 24-03-2014 @ 19:13 |
Member 299, 579 posts SQ 250, BP 200, DL 282.5732.5 kgs @ 109kgs UnEq | Can't see your vids on this crap fone but I would say usually its quad dominance/hip weakness and lack of mobility | ||
| JackRevans | | ... | 24-03-2014 @ 19:15 |
 'There was also a sausage in my mouth.' Member 2477, 16481 posts SQ 190, BP 130, DL 235555.0 kgs @ 83kgs UnEq | maybe if you lack power when you push your knees out, it would be very beneficial to train pushing your knees out | ||
| JackRevans | | ... | 24-03-2014 @ 19:17 |
'There was also a sausage in my mouth.' Member 2477, 16481 posts SQ 190, BP 130, DL 235555.0 kgs @ 83kgs UnEq | also, I know you squat much more than me so really you shouldn't necessarily care about what I say but your whole technique is just aweful. lots of forward lean and back rounding even on the really light weights | ||
| Simeon | | ... | 24-03-2014 @ 19:18 |
 tight in the hole Member 2057, 3121 posts SQ 205, BP 140, DL 260605.0 kgs @ 95kgs UnEq | Have you tried a narrower stance? If your knees instinctively want to cave into that position why not have them pointing that way to start with? | ||
| DrD | | ... | 24-03-2014 @ 19:20 |
 #IStandByMillsy Member 4287, 2614 posts SQ 300, BP 310, DL 250860.0 kgs @ 120kgs Eq | I get told off for this regularly, despite my best efforts, it seems to creep in above 85-90% or when getting towards failure. I'd imagine that it can increase the risk of chronic injury to the inner side of the knee if it's throughout all working sets but it's hard to see how much lateral force is being put on your knees in the video, but have also heard it referred to slightly beneficial to getting the most power out of the hole (if done in a controlled way - and not a massive caving in!). Hopefully we'll both get some good advice! | ||
| IrishMarc | | ... | 24-03-2014 @ 19:20 |
no really Irish Member 1196, 5908 posts SQ 312, BP 230, DL 320862.0 kgs @ 114kgs UnEq | Not a very good camera angle get one face on looking at you from the waist down doing a set to near failure so we can see what it's like under duress. Looking at those videos I don't see anything from your knees that I would be overly concerned about. If you valgus dramatically it can put excess pressure on the lateral structures of the knee (acl/mcl) but it is more of a concern during running and cutting as it puts your chance of injury up significantly. If all you do is lift I'm really not sure how concerned you should be since quite a number of weightlifters bow in like f**k in their squats and seem to be happy as larry. If it causes you pain in your knee joints it needs addressing, if it causes a weakness in the lift it needs addressing. If it isn't an issue then your over thinking it. Try some stance widths and toe positions and see if you can find one that keeps the knees out and makes the lift feel more powerful in the first instance. | ||
| DrD | | ... | 24-03-2014 @ 19:22 |
#IStandByMillsy Member 4287, 2614 posts SQ 300, BP 310, DL 250860.0 kgs @ 120kgs Eq | IrishMarc said:Not a very good camera angle get one face on looking at you from the waist down doing a set to near failure so we can see what it's like under duress. Looking at those videos I don't see anything from your knees that I would be overly concerned about. If you valgus dramatically it can put excess pressure on the lateral structures of the knee (acl/mcl) but it is more of a concern during running and cutting as it puts your chance of injury up significantly. If all you do is lift I'm really not sure how concerned you should be since quite a number of weightlifters bow in like f**k in their squats and seem to be happy as larry. If it causes you pain in your knee joints it needs addressing, if it causes a weakness in the lift it needs addressing. If it isn't an issue then your over thinking it. Try some stance widths and toe positions and see if you can find one that keeps the knees out and makes the lift feel more powerful in the first instance. I like your advice!! | ||
| AMH_Power | | ... | 24-03-2014 @ 19:35 |
we ride at dawn Member 4363, 1442 posts SQ 310, BP 250, DL 320880.0 kgs @ 104kgs UnEq | Post Edited: 24.03.2014 @ 19:36 PM by AMH_Power The issue with knees coming inwards is the integrity of the knee joint while 'inwards'. A knee tracking directly over the foot will allow the ACL to support the knee structure along it's length (as per it's function). When the knees collapse inwards the ACL isn't supporting the knee in its natural alignment.... You end up in a position where the LCL acts as a pivot for the outer hamstring to leverage your knee open (and in turn tearing the ACL). The greater the drift the greater the risk. Some lifters do it to minimise the angle of incidence, like riding a bike up a hill in zig zags. More so in Oly lifters as the squat proportion is sub-maximal.... Quickest fix that taught me not to let my knees drift was to turn my heals in/toes out. Helped activating my glutes and hip extensors which didn't even contribute before (similar to your lifting; all quads out the hole then all back to finish the lift). Thanks for vids, enjoyed the watch... good luck. edit. I type too slow, IrishMarc hit the nail on the head... | ||
| Terminator | | ... | 24-03-2014 @ 20:03 |
jerking is obviously great, Member 2521, 4722 posts SQ 235, BP 160, DL 290685.0 kgs @ 111kgs UnEq | Thanks for that. No, it does not cause me pain, and yes all I do is lift. I have not (yet) experimented with different stance widths, but I shall try a narrower stance next session and see how that goes. I will be sure to employ the heels in, toes out pointer too. Quads out the hole and back to finish is the perfect way to summarise how I squat. IrishMarc said:Not a very good camera angle get one face on looking at you from the waist down doing a set to near failure so we can see what it's like under duress. Looking at those videos I don't see anything from your knees that I would be overly concerned about. If you valgus dramatically it can put excess pressure on the lateral structures of the knee (acl/mcl) but it is more of a concern during running and cutting as it puts your chance of injury up significantly. If all you do is lift I'm really not sure how concerned you should be since quite a number of weightlifters bow in like f**k in their squats and seem to be happy as larry. If it causes you pain in your knee joints it needs addressing, if it causes a weakness in the lift it needs addressing. If it isn't an issue then your over thinking it. Try some stance widths and toe positions and see if you can find one that keeps the knees out and makes the lift feel more powerful in the first instance. | ||
| Evis | | ... | 25-03-2014 @ 01:53 |
Member 2202, 346 posts SQ 282.5, BP 220, DL 320.5823.0 kgs @ 120kgs UnEq | Even if something doesnt hurt initially it doesnt mean it wont lead to more wear and tear in the long run, and put an earlier than nescessary stop to your lifting career. | ||
| Scottish | | ... | 25-03-2014 @ 10:18 |
Member 2092, 592 posts SQ 190, BP 140, DL 220550.0 kgs @ 123.7kgs UnEq | I used to squat with a wide stance and my knees would come in but more so I would crumble at the bottom and round right over not getting my hips under the bar and loosing power. I found bringing my stance in so I was shoulder width, using squat shoes and a lower bar position with my hands as close as possible. Kept me a lot more upright, zero knee wobbles and my hips stayed under the bar more giving me more power. | ||
| JonA81 | | ... | 25-03-2014 @ 13:33 |
 Member 2216, 2243 posts | Do you push your knees out on the way down? It may help create the space needed to drop your hips down rather than back and allow you to squat more upright. | ||
| frankie1parke | | ... | 25-03-2014 @ 13:52 |
 Squat depth : approved. Member 3804, 224 posts SQ 300, BP 180, DL 272.5752.5 kgs @ 115kgs UnEq | Post Edited: 25.03.2014 @ 13:55 PM by frankie1parke having your feet pointing more forward about 5-10 degrees will create more hip torque and should help with knee stabilityEdit: your lacking hip flexion and external rotation. once your have more hip flexibility your knees will just naturally track out to the sides and inline with your second/third toes | ||