Opinions on use of O-lifts for power
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| herman |  | Opinions on use of O-lifts for power | 03-04-2014 @ 15:35 |
 hermit Member 3904, 988 posts | Thought I'd start a discussion to get peoples opinions. Snatches & Cleans are almost universally accepted in S&C circles as a method of developing 'power' in ALL athletes. To the extent that you will see coaches forcing athletes to do them, and rather risky stuff like jump squats before athletes can even do a regular front or back squat with good technique. I maybe be wrong here, and would love to hear some other experiences/conflicting opinions. But I do not believe you can develop "power" by doing the 'quick lifts'. The thing that increases power is simply getting stronger, lifting heavy weights in the big 'slow lifts' . 'Power' exercises should be sports specific, and help to apply the strength you have gained in slow lifts efficiently and develop good movement patterns for your sport. In most cases just doing the sport is enough and optimal. Where there are weak links which have scope for improvement, like starts in sprinting - then that can be trained on its own. To hone delivery of strength etc. Sports like shorter distance running, track cycling, long/high jump, boxing and ball sports are thought of as sports benefiting from power & explosivity. So are prime targets for S&C folk to be hammering into doing cleans etc... but do I think that they get any benefit out of it? I cannot see it. They instead engage in a high skill activity which takes time to learn, when done wrong achieves nothing (not even developing weightlifting skills) and has high risk of injury. Power snatches & power cleans would of course have relevance to weightlifting, but as lifters are already doing snatches and cleans it would be upto them if they think that is a weakness they need to work on, if they are already great at getting under the bar and want to get the bar higher etc.. developing skill & delivery of "strength" which is indeed the same thing as "power" but without the strength there in the first place from squats & pulls where does that "power" come from? Thoughts? | ||
| unit94 | | ... | 03-04-2014 @ 15:46 |
 what is everyone's fran time? Member 3986, 10449 posts SQ 340, BP 200, DL 400940.0 kgs @ 129kgs Eq | I think power snatches and power cleans are good for power development. I do train in a uni s+c gym and see athletes do absolutely terrible power cleans and snatches, the really popular one is the jump and shrug with a bar in your hands. These athletes also do a lot of step ups and lying down on the floor not really doing anything, my personal favourite is holding plates in their hand and moving their arms like they're sprinting. These guys barely ever do squats or deadlifts and when they do it's normally with terrible technique. If I was their coach I'd be teaching them how to lift and getting them strong but most of the coaches learn all the fancy useless sport specific s**t and do that all the time. Sorry I've forgotten the question but this s**t really annoys me lol. | ||
| Gingy | | ... | 03-04-2014 @ 15:50 |
concept 2 guru Member 1235, 4675 posts SQ 190, BP 137.5, DL 220547.5 kgs @ 85kgs UnEq | I did PL for years and coudlnt jump past the lowest setting on the Plyo box at uni. I had bigger squat numbers than now. WL for 18 months and last time I was at uni on the same box I could do about 6 settings higher so half a foot? I know my "vert" has gone up to. My power clean went from 107 to 130 and jerk went to 140 from a ropey 110. I think this helped me jump. I haven't trained jumps independently at all and I'm heavier now. In summary I think the. O lifts are useful for developing the sort of power that would be useful in other sports | ||
| shanejer | | ... | 03-04-2014 @ 15:52 |
Member 1307, 14110 posts SQ 355, BP 240, DL 370965.0 kgs @ 102kgs UnEq | Post Edited: 03.04.2014 @ 15:59 PM by shanejer Takes to long to develope the technique to be valid, would be better spending time doing other exercises to increase power output.Like getting a bigger squat. EDIT: just based on what Gingy said . Depends on the sport, lets randomly take a box jump as an example though..... Athlete can jump onto a 40" box he wants it higher, done no previous training other than jumping to achieve this, he has a max squat of 120kg if he spent 1 year squatting and hit 200kg i think he would jump higher than if he spent 1 year learning to power clean more and power snatch more. | ||
| IrishMarc | | ... | 03-04-2014 @ 16:04 |
no really Irish Member 1196, 5908 posts SQ 312, BP 230, DL 320862.0 kgs @ 114kgs UnEq | Strength lifts are too slow to develop your power they do however develop your ceiling for power. Lets say you squat 200 Then you increase your power clean from 110 to 140 and do jump training I guarantee you will jump higher. If you squat 200 then get your squat up to 250 with no cleans or jump training you will jump higher but not as much if you did programme a. Power and speed need to be trained at higher velocities. Power clean and snatch aren't the only ways of developing it. Jump training, weighted throws, sled sprints, push presses etc can be used as well but the clean and snatch give you a lot of benefit and they aren't really that hard to learn. 3-4 months of technique work with a good coach and you can get some really nice progress were not asking you to win gold medals at the commies. | ||
| shanejer | | ... | 03-04-2014 @ 16:14 |
Member 1307, 14110 posts SQ 355, BP 240, DL 370965.0 kgs @ 102kgs UnEq | IrishMarc said:Strength lifts are too slow to develop your power they do however develop your ceiling for power. Lets say you squat 200 Then you increase your power clean from 110 to 140 and do jump training I guarantee you will jump higher. If you squat 200 then get your squat up to 250 with no cleans or jump training you will jump higher but not as much if you did programme a. Power and speed need to be trained at higher velocities. Power clean and snatch aren't the only ways of developing it. Jump training, weighted throws, sled sprints, push presses etc can be used as well but the clean and snatch give you a lot of benefit and they aren't really that hard to learn. 3-4 months of technique work with a good coach and you can get some really nice progress were not asking you to win gold medals at the commies. In an untrain athlete though (in terms of strength/power) would you say they are better getting maximal strength up or power / speed. I was always told to first increase the maximal strength so you have a base to then move lighter weights quickly also i was told that it would be more effective to do exercises such as speed squats/ paused squats, jumps / throws to generate power as aposed to the oly lifts as they are so technical they will limit most atheltes | ||
| IrishMarc | | ... | 03-04-2014 @ 16:27 |
no really Irish Member 1196, 5908 posts SQ 312, BP 230, DL 320862.0 kgs @ 114kgs UnEq | shanejer said: In an untrain athlete though (in terms of strength/power) would you say they are better getting maximal strength up or power / speed. I was always told to first increase the maximal strength so you have a base to then move lighter weights quickly also i was told that it would be more effective to do exercises such as speed squats/ paused squats, jumps / throws to generate power as aposed to the oly lifts as they are so technical they will limit most atheltes Strength is your ultimately your ceiling or limiting factor so if you can't squat bodyweight strength is your priority. I would train all aspects at once though and just prioritise as we go. An athlete who squats 1x per bodyweight might do 20% speed power / 80% strength say Where an athlete who can squat 3x bw might do 10% strength / 90% speed and power. obviously gross simplifications. If you have a coach who can do a good job getting people to oly lift then I would do a lot of it in the programme. If your like joe defranco and don't have a good oly lift background just do what he does and do a large variety of jump and power training it will still get good results. It always depends on whats available. Power clean is pretty easy to learn I would venture if you have a reasonable coach if you can get up to 50-60% squat efficiency and have a massive squat you will shift some tin. | ||
| adillon10 | | ... | 03-04-2014 @ 16:36 |
Member 3863, 1275 posts SQ 155, BP 110, DL 182447.0 kgs @ 75kgs UnEq | I always hear the "takes too long to develop technique so they're useless in a sporting environment". I totally disagree. Depending on the quality of the coach they can be used very effectively and if so should definitely be used for power. Watch a Weightlifter jump in celebration after they hit a massive number on the stage, they need extra roof space. PowerFUL!! | ||
| danbaseley | | ... | 03-04-2014 @ 16:40 |
 A member for 10 years and still no mouldy peanuts Member 1252, 4481 posts SQ 160, BP 110, DL 215485.0 kgs @ 98kgs UnEq | I think plyomterics, squats and power cleans can easily live together in a repertoire for a young athlete. I taught myself to power-clean - and I am sure that it would only take a couple of sessions with a decent coach for most people to learn the fundamentals; plus it doesn't require the mobility/flexibility of a full-clean. Sprints, Depth Jumps and Box Jumps always helped my vertical - and squats are an awesome exercise for building overall strength - so why not do all three? | ||
| shanejer | | ... | 03-04-2014 @ 16:56 |
Member 1307, 14110 posts SQ 355, BP 240, DL 370965.0 kgs @ 102kgs UnEq | Perhaps the people in question that told me this information took into account the fact i am self trained thus answered relevant to that, and if i had access to a qualified olympic coach maybe there answer would of been different . | ||
| bigbadbish | | ... | 03-04-2014 @ 16:59 |
 A World class farmer Member 576, 3429 posts SQ 350, BP 200, DL 400950.0 kgs @ 136kgs UnEq | Totally depends on the athlete. I work mainly with rugby players and the ones who can clean/high pull well with good loads do have cleans in their programmes for some phases during the year. We teach all our young guys oly lifts so that we have the option of using them later down the line and for other reasons. All the other guys do sprints, jumps and throws. If I on had an athlete for a limited time per week, I personally would lean towards various jumps and throws as they are easier to perform, require less technical skill, less coaching time and have no deceleration phase. I am also yet to see someone jump non-explosively. | ||
| VanillaGorilla | | ... | 03-04-2014 @ 17:16 |
 the UK's leading expert in bio mechanics Member 1973, 7379 posts | So much in this thread!  In a nutshell, the only people I coach who do a lot of WL are WLers. All my athletes do a mix of things that are specific to their sport, their individual strengths and weaknesses and contact time available. Generally this will involve learning and improving the ability to manipulate their bodies and movement patterns, rather than implements.Most of my athletes are pitch or court based so this is highly relevant, but many of them also benefit from improvements gleaned from the heavier work. | ||
| IrishMarc | | ... | 03-04-2014 @ 17:39 |
no really Irish Member 1196, 5908 posts SQ 312, BP 230, DL 320862.0 kgs @ 114kgs UnEq | If you are one coach to 30 athletes I wouldn't dream of trying to teach everyone to clean or snatch because logistically this is obviously ludicrous. If the logistics are with you though and you are good at coaching the movement then hell yeah get them in the programme. If done correctly the movements are ballistic in nature and so are very applicable for jump and sprint training (hence why they are so widely utalised). Squats, Olympic lifts, sprint training and plyometrics should be in the programme year round IMO just change the intensity or volume of them to best suit your goals. | ||
| Wiegieboard | | ... | 03-04-2014 @ 18:17 |
 as crimson as my last victims underclothing..... Member 899, 11330 posts SQ 180, BP 132.5, DL 190502.5 kgs @ 118kgs UnEq | I believe that heavy movements AND explosive movemwnts need to be done to develop athletic power with an emphasis on plyometric conditioning. I used to be a high jumper in school and can still outjump lighter men who are stronger than me. To develop explosive bodyweight movements I believe you need to do explosive bodyweight movements as well as build strength. You need to train yourself to apply as high a maximum force as quickly as possible. | ||
| herman | | ... | 03-04-2014 @ 20:29 |
hermit Member 3904, 988 posts | Thanks for putting in a great response Marc (and everyone). I agree with a bunch of stuff, but disagree with some and will be stating my doubts & ideas. Just want to make it clear that I dont want this to be an argumentative b**ch fest. My intention was for everyone to hear each others opinions & experiences so we can all learn a bit from each other. And it is going very well! IrishMarc said:Strength lifts are too slow to develop your power they do however develop your ceiling for power. I think you are massively underplaying this "ceiling for power" thing. Strength is the ability to generate force, power is just the ability to deliver it fast and efficiently, providing that the athlete is technically proficient at the task at hand strength gains will flow straight into power gains up until the athlete approaches the higher end of their strength potential, where strength training will become too demanding to spur progress and gains diminish. If someone gets stronger doing 'slow lifts' with heavy weights, their ability to demonstrate this power by lifting moderate weights quickly will continue improve proportionately. But someone focuses on lifting moderate weights quickly, their quick lifts will not progress and neither will their ability to handle heavier weights. If they had any slow lift gains from previous training, these would actually go DOWN with neglect and then the ability in quick lifts will go down too! Lets consider deadlifts & dynamic effort deadlifts so technique distraction of o-lifts is not an issue. Get a bigger deadlift = Automatic DE deadlift improvement without training it. Do DE deadlifts = Achieve nothing / regress Do DE deadlifts & Heavy Deadlifts. = it will act as active recovery and [italic]maybe[/italic] provide a honing effect to strength delivery, by nervous system stimulation and trying to recruit more muscle fibres even the weight it too light! Lets imagine DE deadlifting was a competitive sport, how much time would a DE powerlifter dedicate to doing fast pulls? My opinion is that it would be minimal even though it was sports specific, as the limiting factor is so clearly max strength and they would require little to no practice/honing to deliver the strength in a DE deadlift. Then you increase your power clean from 110 to 140 and do jump training I guarantee you will jump higher. If you squat 200 then get your squat up to 250 with no cleans or jump training you will jump higher but not as much if you did programme a. I agree whole heartedly that jump training is one of the only ways a person has a hope of improving their jumps. Jumps rely on a natural explosivity and power to weight ratio that comes with genetics and varies a lot! There is little that anyone can do to improve. Some things that may help are strength (without detriment to PTW) and honing the SKILL of jumping, and application of your strength gains to that skill - ie jump training. I cannot believe that power clean increases would do anything for jumps unless they somehow corrected a movement flaw in the athlete, like poor hip extension. But then, most people rely on a very generous thigh bump in power cleans, even top weightlifters. This is an attribute that dominates the final and "most explosive" part of the pull and has absolutely nothing to do with jumping. Maybe snatches would better but it seems like an awfully complicated way to correct a hip extension flaw in jumping. Power and speed need to be trained at higher velocities. Like I have described, I disagree. But in a sport requiring an explosive, powerful movement then practising that movement or explosive accessory work based on the sport movement, will help you to apply your strength gains efficiently to the sport movement. Where the movements required in the sport are complicated, (and most real sports are!) it requires continuous rigourous training of the sport which reduces time & recovery available for extra gym s**t. As the sport is explosive in nature, your high velocity, explosive component is generally covered. The limited gym time should be used for strength work, and things like sports specific power exercises or corrective work, based on the athlete & sport. Is it something 'necessary' that will both benefit the sport and not being covered by practising the sport? Power clean and snatch aren't the only ways of developing it. Jump training, weighted throws, sled sprints, push presses etc can be used as well but the clean and snatch give you a lot of benefit and they aren't really that hard to learn. I agree that the variety of stuff you can do is overlooked, there are endless novel ways you can train the explosive elements of a variety of sports. But I believe it needs to be very purposeful, to teach your body to explosively execute the movement required in your sport - any explosive exercise needs to mirror it and not have too much superfluous demands either. | ||