Greece is the word
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| Luke82 |  | ... | 18-08-2015 @ 14:42 |
 Enjoys his parents fully stocked fridge. Member 3476, 868 posts SQ 170, BP 136, DL 217.5523.5 kgs @ 95kgs UnEq | Post Edited: 18.08.2015 @ 14:42 PM by Luke82 I see no coincidence in that the highest bidder got a government contract. The consortium that bought it also contains a Greek company.Call them the elites, the EU, krauts, lizard men, the global Minotaur, whatever, it's still searching for boogeymen to skirt round the fact that the Greek state couldn't function as it was. They tried a debt haircut and it didn't stop this fact. The Greeks were in a hole and decided to elect the best diggers they could find, then ask European tax payers to buy the shovels. They found out quickly that this wouldn't work, Varoufakis went back to his mansion like the good champagne socialist should, and now an actual modernising can take place. Greece's state run industries had to be privatised as they didn't function as state assets, so they will be sold off. The highest bidder got this particular contract. There is no conspiracy to unearth. | ||
| deleted2_20210523 |  | ... | 18-08-2015 @ 14:47 |
Member 2606, 11453 posts SQ 170, BP 117.5, DL 215502.5 kgs @ 91.6kgs UnEq | deleted | ||
| Luke82 | | ... | 18-08-2015 @ 14:49 |
Enjoys his parents fully stocked fridge. Member 3476, 868 posts SQ 170, BP 136, DL 217.5523.5 kgs @ 95kgs UnEq | kirkynick said:What round is now between you two? Let's call it ROUND 3. Ha ha must be around that by now. | ||
| WILLSAN | | ... | 18-08-2015 @ 15:15 |
 Trump will get another four years Member 126, 16707 posts SQ 160, BP 110, DL 225495.0 kgs @ 75kgs UnEq | lol I honestly cant be arsed to pick apart your simplified analysis again. there is no boogeyman - just different blocs of power at the top of the tree vying for power over the masses using physical or economic force. this is not conspiracy theory, it is politics and economics. do you think I am arguing for socialism? | ||
| Luke82 | | ... | 18-08-2015 @ 15:29 |
Enjoys his parents fully stocked fridge. Member 3476, 868 posts SQ 170, BP 136, DL 217.5523.5 kgs @ 95kgs UnEq | WILLSAN said:lol I honestly cant be arsed to pick apart your simplified analysis again. there is no boogeyman - just different blocs of power at the top of the tree vying for power over the masses using physical or economic force. this is not conspiracy theory, it is politics and economics. do you think I am arguing for socialism? No I think you believe there is a great conspiracy to dismantle the failing Greek state and dish it out to some group of global elite bullies. I just can't work out why you think this. If this was the plan all along why not let the Greek state fail, come crashing out of the euro, become a third world country and then buy it all up? To be fair, you've never actually picked apart my simple analysis, just called it simple, as if that was enough in and of itself. If I'm so off base it shouldn't take long to actually point out why. | ||
| deleted2_20210523 | | ... | 18-08-2015 @ 15:38 |
Member 2606, 11453 posts SQ 170, BP 117.5, DL 215502.5 kgs @ 91.6kgs UnEq | deleted | ||
| WILLSAN | | ... | 18-08-2015 @ 16:06 |
Trump will get another four years Member 126, 16707 posts SQ 160, BP 110, DL 225495.0 kgs @ 75kgs UnEq | Luke82 said: If this was the plan all along why not let the Greek state fail, come crashing out of the euro, become a third world country and then buy it all up? To be fair, you've never actually picked apart my simple analysis, just called it simple, as if that was enough in and of itself. If I'm so off base it shouldn't take long to actually point out why. the greek state has failed. it cant be allowed to default because there is a risk it could cause a chain of defaults to be triggered, crashing the european banking system. greece is on the way to becoming a third world country within the eu. ??? greeces assets are being sold for peanuts NOW because 'the creditors' are forcing them to. if they were allowed to default and come out of the euro they would be in a better position to protect the country's assets. you seem to be saying its simple case of a socialist government getting itself into debt. I entirely agree with that in itself but see it as a tiny part of a huge story that goes back to the creation of the EU and the monetary union. its a hugely complex issue and I could write an essay on what I see as the problems but at the end of it I am sure that a) you would still think the greeks were lazy socialists and b) no one else would even care lol. | ||
| WILLSAN | | ... | 18-08-2015 @ 16:08 |
Trump will get another four years Member 126, 16707 posts SQ 160, BP 110, DL 225495.0 kgs @ 75kgs UnEq | kirkynick said: Who would win in a fist fight between you two? Note: that's fist not fisting.  lol I aint mad. what are your views nick? or are you more comfortable with questioning than being questioned? | ||
| luki | | ... | 18-08-2015 @ 16:17 |
Avatar Member 5517, 1538 posts SQ 160, BP 165, DL 201526.0 kgs @ 110kgs UnEq | Luke82 said: They tried a debt haircut and it didn't stop this fact. The Greeks were in a hole and decided to elect the best diggers they could find, then ask European tax payers to buy the shovels. They found out quickly that this wouldn't work, Varoufakis went back to his mansion like the good champagne socialist should, and now an actual modernising can take place. There hasn't been a debt haircut. The Greeks wanted one. The ECB/European Finance Ministers said there could be no debt write-off within the Eurozone. Luke82 said: Greece's state run industries had to be privatised as they didn't function as state assets, so they will be sold off. The highest bidder got this particular contract. There is no conspiracy to unearth. This is just political crap. Lots of countries have successfully run state companies. Greek airports are hugely profitable and they wouldn't be worth anything to the Hedgefunds buying them if they weren't. Selling them off takes that profit from the exchecquer (reducing its ability to pay the debts) and passes it into the hands of a German corporation. That's not good or bad, but its not the only economic model and it certainly isn't the only economics that work. One of the most successful companies in Europe and the 11th biggest company in the world, is 50% owned by the Norweigan people. Statoil (State Oil.) That is why they have the best living standards in Europe. The argument that Nationalised industry is bad for people is just right wing tabloid economics. | ||
| luki | | ... | 18-08-2015 @ 16:20 |
Avatar Member 5517, 1538 posts SQ 160, BP 165, DL 201526.0 kgs @ 110kgs UnEq | Post Edited: 18.08.2015 @ 16:20 PM by luki This is the biggest con going. Now the IMF have received repayment of its loans to the Greeks they want the EU/ECB to burn the debtors i.e. the EU taxpayers who just bailed them out of Greece. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33945263 | ||
| Luke82 | | ... | 18-08-2015 @ 16:33 |
Enjoys his parents fully stocked fridge. Member 3476, 868 posts SQ 170, BP 136, DL 217.5523.5 kgs @ 95kgs UnEq | I don't think the Greeks are lazy socialists, but I do think their voting in of Syriza was mental, and that they deserve no sympathy or special treatment when they deal with the consequences of this. Every government is elected to deal with the situation their country is in from that point onwards, so I don't think their caterwauling about how they were being bullied by the elites for not being granted a debt wipe has any merit at all. Yes, the Greek problems had developed over decades but it still doesn't change the fact that the Greek voters chose to ignore the situation they were facing and vote in a bunch of charlatans with unrealistic promises. Lots of other counties dealt with austerity measures, it wasn't nice, but tightening of belts never is. Most people realise, without the need to get a degree in economics, that a situation of spending more than you are generating isn't going to work for very long and that the credit boom was fun but now it was over. I don't know if the countries assets are now being sold for 'peanuts' as you say, but if you think that why were you raising your eyebrows at the highest bidder getting all the airports? Surely that's a good thing. I'd read the essay mate, but doubt I would change my views, on this you are correct. It seems we are both looking at the same situation and coming to completely different conclusions. Or I am indeed too thick to grasp the enormity of the situation and would be best to just sit dribbling in the corner ha ha. Kirky, I am sure, like me, Will enjoys this debate without malice. Besides, I doubt we could ever agree on any prefight stipulations ha ha. Luki, there was a debt haircut of a whopping 50% http://www.market**tch.com/story/greek-bondholders-to-take-50-... But it didn't work as the country was spending more than it was generating still, furthering debt. I know people seem to hate looking at this issue from a simple view point but you can't say it any other way. This is why they are flogging the state goodies, so that in future financial crises the Greek government aren't exposed as much and the whole country doesn't come to a halt. It lets private companies take the risk, and if they get into difficulty someone else can come in and take over. I wondered how long it was before a reference to the tabloids would be dropped in! | ||
| deleted2_20210523 | | ... | 18-08-2015 @ 16:41 |
Member 2606, 11453 posts SQ 170, BP 117.5, DL 215502.5 kgs @ 91.6kgs UnEq | deleted | ||
| WILLSAN | | ... | 18-08-2015 @ 18:55 |
Trump will get another four years Member 126, 16707 posts SQ 160, BP 110, DL 225495.0 kgs @ 75kgs UnEq | Luke82 said:I don't think the Greeks are lazy socialists, but I do think their voting in of Syriza was mental, and that they deserve no sympathy or special treatment when they deal with the consequences of this. Every government is elected to deal with the situation their country is in from that point onwards, so I don't think their caterwauling about how they were being bullied by the elites for not being granted a debt wipe has any merit at all. the austerity imposed on greece crushed the greek economy and sent the the greek debt to unpayable levels long before syriza came into power. they were insolvent. they will never be able to pay back what they owe. it is mathematically impossible. http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imag... in a free market, capitalist system they should have been allowed to default their debts and the lenders who irresponsibly lent to greece should have to take their medicine. in the european system the banks are not held responsible so the debt was transferred to the european people. the greeks had more debt FORCED on them in the form of bailouts to keep the SYSTEM afloat, not greece. their democracy is now being held hostage with a debt that should have been defaulted on years ago. varoufakis came to the eu with a plan of sound economics and was met with a chorus of 'f**k you, pay me.' to me, varoufakis is the only politician who came out of the whole syriza deal with any honour. he realised that the greek people and the greek government no longer have any say in how their country is run so he fell on his sword. Luke82 said: Yes, the Greek problems had developed over decades but it still doesn't change the fact that the Greek voters chose to ignore the situation they were facing and vote in a bunch of charlatans with unrealistic promises. Lots of other counties dealt with austerity measures, it wasn't nice, but tightening of belts never is. Most people realise, without the need to get a degree in economics, that a situation of spending more than you are generating isn't going to work for very long and that the credit boom was fun but now it was over. yes the greeks have a responsibility but the problems were magnified hugely by the set up of the monetary union. without the euro they would not be in this situation. just the same as the rest of the piigs would not have found themselves in the dire straits they did. the euro itself IS the problem. and you say 'dealt with' like the problem is over. it isnt. the euro train is still on the tracks but the debt load is bigger than ever despite, or some might say because of, the austerity policies. we are approaching a worldwide economic slowdown (recession even) and europe is in an extremely poor place to deal with that. Luke82 said: I don't know if the countries assets are now being sold for 'peanuts' as you say, but if you think that why were you raising your eyebrows at the highest bidder getting all the airports? Surely that's a good thing. I dont think selling off assets is necessarily a bad thing but selling them when they are at their cheapest is the worst possible outcome. no one is paying a good price to a government on its knees begging for money. Luke82 said: I'd read the essay mate, but doubt I would change my views, on this you are correct. It seems we are both looking at the same situation and coming to completely different conclusions. Or I am indeed too thick to grasp the enormity of the situation and would be best to just sit dribbling in the corner ha ha. all you can do is take the information you have and come to your conclusions based on that. the way I look at it is - I have ideas; they maybe right, maybe not but at least I have an opinion! Luke82 said: Kirky, I am sure, like me, Will enjoys this debate without malice. Besides, I doubt we could ever agree on any prefight stipulations ha ha.  | ||
| Luke82 | | ... | 19-08-2015 @ 07:49 |
Enjoys his parents fully stocked fridge. Member 3476, 868 posts SQ 170, BP 136, DL 217.5523.5 kgs @ 95kgs UnEq | I agree that Greek debt is in an unpayable situation, but the thing is a huge debt reduction was tried and it didn't work because the Greek system was fundamentally unsustainable. They had grown accustomed to a level of public expense that outstripped their means of tax generation. A overhaul of the way the Greek state was run was needed but instead the Greek electorate chose to put their head in the sands and elect a group who gave a load of undeliverable promises. The reason why austerity hit Greece so hard was because so much of it was state owned. It's exactly why much of it needs to be privatised now. And it's doubtful that, without reducing the size of the state, the Greek economy would improve and that they would get a better price for their state assets, so best sell them now as it's likely as good as it's gonna get for a long time. State run industry might have worked back when a country's wealth was measured by how much coal, steel or lumber it could produce, but advanced economies (which is what Greece wants to be) run primarily on tertiary industries and, rightly or wrongly, credit. That's why I don't think it's a good idea to just accept a default and let greece's credit rating go down the toilet. It's a sure ticket to third-world-itude, though you may be correct that that is unavoidable now anyway. Greece have indeed had austerity forced on them, but by the situation, not the EU or the Huns or whoever. Same as many, many other states within the eurozone, many of whom were asked by the Greeks to pay for their state system, many of whom can only look on in envy at the pensions etc. Greeks get. And their creditors have already taken a big spoonful of the medicine, a huge haircut has already been granted remember. I disagree that Varoufakis had a sound economic plan, and would say it was him that said the 'f**k you' by his obstinate behaviour when dealing with people he was asking for money from. I don't see a shred of honour in his behaviour, and am not impressed by his sixth form common room political views. He's a Marxist, and anyone that cannot see that Marxism doesn't work, despite all the historical evidence, has terrible judgement in my eyes. That said, his motorbike was cool. | ||
| deleted2_20210523 | | ... | 19-08-2015 @ 09:14 |
Member 2606, 11453 posts SQ 170, BP 117.5, DL 215502.5 kgs @ 91.6kgs UnEq | deleted | ||