Deadlifting help please? - warning, very long post.

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Sawyers		Deadlifting help please? - warning, very long post.	30-12-2013 @ 13:38
Member 2713, 1887 posts SQ 242.5, BP 140, DL 285 667.5 kgs @ 84kgs UnEq	Cliffs - My Deadlift is weak. - Lower back rounding. - I think it's weak hamstrings, if so, how can I fix? - Why is my sumo so much stronger then conventional? - It's improved only 20kg whilst I weigh 10kg more now. - Thankyou to anyone who replies! Long version.. Last year, I hurt my back deadlifting (first video), it's quite obvious why.. The lower back rounding. So I took a long time off conventional and started pulling sumo. Sumo overtook conventional after ~4months. I did a comp in September with only doing 1 session of conventional and ended up pulling 160 x 15 (second video). And since then have been trying to improve it. I maxed out a few weeks ago (third video) and got 202.5 with the form you can see. Today was 172.5 x 1+ I got 3, but again with the slight rounding (fourth video) nowhere near as bad as it has been, but it feels really uncomfortable and my lower back is painful usually in the days following. The first time I ever deadlifted I pulled 160 x 2 @68, (fifth video) not knowing what I was doing, and then 182.5 a few weeks later (sixth video). Obviously these look horrible, but even still, I'm now nearly 10kg heavier and only just pulling 20kg more so I think I need to do something to rectify this and here there are a lot more people more knowledgable then me that will hopefully be able to help. Any input would be greatly appreciated. If anybody needs to know anything else about my training/deadlifting il gladly answer. Hopefully someone can shed some light on what's going wrong and what I can do to fix it! Deadlift bad http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEYIuAvfRPU Deadlift at comp http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ob55crGfRfg Deadlift max http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZhgbppccHw Today's Deadlift http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6Ejspvm-tA First time deadlifting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiiJSdLkk9s Few weeks after first time http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gP8DAaQ4Bsw Thanks

ystradboy79		...	30-12-2013 @ 14:01
Chris 'The Magician' Melling Member 1443, 978 posts SQ 270, BP 180, DL 320 770.0 kgs @ 135kgs UnEq	Have you tried wearing your belt lower? Still shouldnt be rounding out like you do but at least it will offer some protection to your lower lumbar area whilst you work on your form. With regards to the rounding , do you do much in the way of direct core work? Im guessing not as you seem to be folding very easily , you dont seem to be tightening your core at all as you pull and just going with it rather than fighting to keep your back straight.

Sawyers		...	30-12-2013 @ 14:12
Member 2713, 1887 posts SQ 242.5, BP 140, DL 285 667.5 kgs @ 84kgs UnEq	ystradboy79 said:Have you tried wearing your belt lower? Still shouldnt be rounding out like you do but at least it will offer some protection to your lower lumbar area whilst you work on your form. With regards to the rounding , do you do much in the way of direct core work? Im guessing not as you seem to be folding very easily , you dont seem to be tightening your core at all as you pull and just going with it rather than fighting to keep your back straight. With the belt, if I wear it any lower it's too loose, but Il cut another hole into it and try that. Il record what happens and put it in this thread. I don't do anything specific for it, maybe twice a week il do some hanging leg raises or something like that. What kind of thing would you suggest?

ZMA_junkie		...	30-12-2013 @ 15:14
Member 4987, 41 posts SQ 310, BP 210, DL 310 830.0 kgs @ 114kgs UnEq	Sawyers said:Cliffs - My Deadlift is weak. - Lower back rounding. - I think it's weak hamstrings, if so, how can I fix? - Why is my sumo so much stronger then conventional? - It's improved only 20kg whilst I weigh 10kg more now. - Thankyou to anyone who replies! The sumo is allowing you to keep you back more upright (which must be your weak point). It uses more quads, inner hamstrings and possibly more traps too. Conventional deadlift uses more glutes, outer hamstrings and back. Depending on your bio mechanics, you might be a better sumo deadlifter (like ed coan and dan green) vs Andy Bolton/ B.Magnusson for convectional. Take the weight back down and focus on form then build speed into the equation. Make sure you're doing your assistance exercises. Heavy squats will help too (presuming you can keep your back strait for them) Try the Coan/phillipi deadlift routine and aim to add 20kg to your max. http://tsampa.org/training/scripts/coan_phillipi_deadlift/ Through the 'Texas Method' and the coan Phillipi routine i added over 35kg to my deadlift in 7 months (225-260.5)

AMH_Power		...	30-12-2013 @ 15:26
we ride at dawn Member 4363, 1442 posts SQ 310, BP 250, DL 320 880.0 kgs @ 104kgs UnEq	Your lower back is weak, not your hamstrings. If you imagine your pelvis from the side, what controls the tilt of the pelvis while deadlifting is the primarily the hamstrings and lower back. If you imagine the hamstrings as a rope pulling downwards, and your lower back as a rope pulling upwards, your downwards rope is winning the battle to control your pelvis resulting in your back having to 'let go' as it will injure if it didn't. The muscles of the lower back need to win the battle of the pelvis, the back can pull with silly amount more force without risking injury to the hamstrings; than vice-versa as the hamstrings won't 'let go' how your back does, as they are much longer and have a bigger stretch in the deadlift ROM. Your hamstings need to be the rope that pulls your pelvis downwards... your back needs to be strong enough to simply hold your upperbody solid as a pivot. If not, your video is an example of what happens, the back angle stays static and the pelvis pulls under, resulting in a forwards arch. The forwards arch can be a stronger postion (and arguably safe) but only if it is purposely placed in this position AND THE HAMSTRINGS STILL DOMINATE THE PELVIS. I suffer from piriformis/sciatica so I had to study the st out of the lift to be able to maximise it without fking myself up, which is still a work in progress.... I'd honestly lift much lighter, I'd train at the weight at what my back could hold the weight at. Training/lifting how you are will either stop you reaching your potential or herniating a disc...or both. Lifting sumo isn't fixing your problem, its taking some stress off the hams onto the hips, so that your back isn't competing as much for control. Fix the weakness using good mornings etc, but keeping the back arched backwards throughout the lift, even if the good morning resembles a half rep, keep working on the ROM and holding the position and watch your deadlift rocket. Hope that helps, 'broscience'...


Sawyers		...	30-12-2013 @ 16:27
Member 2713, 1887 posts SQ 242.5, BP 140, DL 285 667.5 kgs @ 84kgs UnEq	ZMA_junkie said: Try the Coan/phillipi deadlift routine and aim to add 20kg to your max. http://tsampa.org/training/scripts/coan_phillipi_deadlift/ Through the 'Texas Method' and the coan Phillipi routine i added over 35kg to my deadlift in 7 months (225-260.5) Thanks for the advice, Il look into this more when I feel like my form is more consistant. Im not looking to make it jump a huge amount, just looking for a way to make some form of consistant progress on it. AMH_Power said:Your lower back is weak, not your hamstrings Thankyou for that explination, id not thought about it like that. I appreciate you taking the time to explain it for me. AMH_Power said: I'd honestly lift much lighter, I'd train at the weight at what my back could hold the weight at. Training/lifting how you are will either stop you reaching your potential or herniating a disc...or both. Lifting sumo isn't fixing your problem, its taking some stress off the hams onto the hips, so that your back isn't competing as much for control. Fix the weakness using good mornings etc, but keeping the back arched backwards throughout the lift, even if the good morning resembles a half rep, keep working on the ROM and holding the position and watch your deadlift rocket. Hope that helps, 'broscience'... So as far as deadlifting now, what would you suggest I reduce my training max to? Its set at 180 now (im doing 531). Il put some lower back stuff on my Squat & Deadlift days. As far as the sumo, if I keep doing it will it negitively impact my conventional? (assuming can I recover ok)

Sawyers		...	31-12-2013 @ 14:37
Member 2713, 1887 posts SQ 242.5, BP 140, DL 285 667.5 kgs @ 84kgs UnEq	Rather then starting a new thread.. Can anyone let me know if I'm doing these good mornings right please? First time trying them. Thanks guys

Fazc		...	31-12-2013 @ 17:01
Sports an extremely muscular arse. Member 38, 6253 posts	f**k Good Mornings, seriously! I think AMH is right on the money, instead of fixing the issue of a weak back you've side-stepped it temporarily by lifting Sumo. But of course that will only get you so far, you've hit a wall now you have to fix that weakness. SLDL's, rounded upper back, beltless and a LOT of them is the key.

Sawyers		...	31-12-2013 @ 18:04
Member 2713, 1887 posts SQ 242.5, BP 140, DL 285 667.5 kgs @ 84kgs UnEq	Fazc said:f**k Good Mornings, seriously! I think AMH is right on the money, instead of fixing the issue of a weak back you've side-stepped it temporarily by lifting Sumo. But of course that will only get you so far, you've hit a wall now you have to fix that weakness. SLDL's, rounded upper back, beltless and a LOT of them is the key. What makes you say that about good mornings? Would you stay away from them? Okay, SLDL's will be included too, 2-3x/week? Il record them next time im in the gym and im sure someone will be able to tell me if im doing them right!

Tom_Martin		...	31-12-2013 @ 18:08
No one believed him anyway. Member 958, 11411 posts SQ 410, BP 215, DL 425 1050.0 kgs @ 100kgs UnEq	Your back is rounding because you round it. You never get it set into a flat or arched position before you start pulling so....there's no chance really! Learn how to get your back set into an arch in your start position. Then, using appropriate weights, fight really hard to keep your back arched while you lift the weight...

Sawyers		...	31-12-2013 @ 18:18
Member 2713, 1887 posts SQ 242.5, BP 140, DL 285 667.5 kgs @ 84kgs UnEq	Tom_Martin said: Learn how to get your back set into an arch in your start position. Then, using appropriate weights, fight really hard to keep your back arched while you lift the weight... Okay, il do this when next deadlifting too. Thanks!

Fazc		...	31-12-2013 @ 18:20
Sports an extremely muscular arse. Member 38, 6253 posts	Sawyers said: What makes you say that about good mornings? Would you stay away from them? They're good for the muscles you're already well developed in, good for Sumo's.

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