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IainKendrickIcon...30-11-2013 @ 15:26 
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some nice relaxing jazz.
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PaulSavage said:Are Humans Carnivores or Herbivores?
Sep 9th, 2005 @ 01:00 am › Steve Pavlina
Are human beings anatomically more similar to natural carnivores or to natural herbivores? Let’s find out….

Intestinal tract length. Carnivorous animals have intestinal tracts that are 3-6x their body length, while herbivores have intestinal tracts 10-12x their body length. Human beings have the same intestinal tract ratio as herbivores.
Stomach acidity. Carnivores’ stomachs are 20x more acidic than the stomachs of herbivores. Human stomach acidity matches that of herbivores.
Saliva. The saliva of carnivores is acidic. The saliva of herbivores is alkaline, which helps pre-digest plant foods. Human saliva is alkaline.
Shape of intestines. Carnivore bowels are smooth, shaped like a pipe, so meat passes through quickly — they don’t have bumps or pockets. Herbivore bowels are bumpy and pouch-like with lots of pockets, like a windy mountain road, so plant foods pass through slowly for optimal nutrient absorption. Human bowels have the same characteristics as those of herbivores.
Fiber. Carnivores don’t require fiber to help move food through their short and smooth digestive tracts. Herbivores require dietary fiber to move food through their long and bumpy digestive tracts, to prevent the bowels from becoming clogged with rotting food. Humans have the same requirement as herbivores.
Cholesterol. Cholesterol is not a problem for a carnivore’s digestive system. A carnivore such as a cat can handle a high-cholesterol diet without negative health consequences. A human cannot. Humans have zero dietary need for cholesterol because our bodies manufacture all we need. Cholesterol is only found in animal foods, never in plant foods. A plant-based diet is by definition cholesterol-free.
Claws and teeth. Carnivores have claws, sharp front teeth capable of subduing prey, and no flat molars for chewing. Herbivores have no claws or sharp front teeth capable of subduing prey, but they have flat molars for chewing. Humans have the same characteristics as herbivores.
But aren’t humans anatomically suited to be omnivores?

Nope. We don’t anatomically match up with omnivorous animals anymore than we do with carnivorous ones. Omnivores are more similar to carnivores than they are to herbivores. For a more detailed summary table that compares the properties of carnivores, herbivores, and omnivores side by side, see this page:
Comparative Anatomy & Taxonomy

The link above also debunks the opportunistic feeder theory, which states that because humans can eat like omnivores, that we must therefore be omnivores. And this is of course false because mere behavior doesn’t indicate suitability. There are plenty of things we can do as a species that would threaten our survival if we all considered them suitable default behavior, such as shooting each other, lobbing hand grenades, or sending spam.

Categories: Health


This is garbage. And I am being quite polite.

The consensus is we evolved as omnivours with meat being a small but important part of are diet. Further more we were not the first species of humans to eat and cook meat.

We are tremendously adaptive species and full omnuvires. Only since the agricultural revolution was being a vegitarian or vegan fully realizable by large numbers of reasons.

I fully respect vegetarians or vegans. Particularly there moral take on eating meat. However dont back track and make up rubbish to suit this agenda.
PaulSavageIcon...30-11-2013 @ 15:35 
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Post Edited: 30.11.2013 @ 15:35 PM by PaulSavage
dan302 said:most great apes inc gorillas and chimps will eat meat given the chance, also from an "animals being killed" perspective the levels of agriculture needed to feed people.....vegens included, decimates huge amounts of animals life.....just saying

I have been fascinated by gorillas since I was very young and no they do not eat meat given half the chance, they could easily kill / eat other animals but they live off vegetation, an adult male eats almost 20kg of it a day.

You would struggle to find a single vegan that would support anything that decimates animal life.
PaulSavageIcon...30-11-2013 @ 15:46 
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IainKendrick said:
This is garbage. And I am being quite polite.
The consensus is we evolved as omnivours with meat being a small but important part of are diet. Further more we were not the first species of humans to eat and cook meat.
We are tremendously adaptive species and full omnuvires. Only since the agricultural revolution was being a vegitarian or vegan fully realizable by large numbers of reasons.
I fully respect vegetarians or vegans. Particularly there moral take on eating meat. However dont back track and make up rubbish to suit this agenda.

Explain why meat is important.
martinbIcon...30-11-2013 @ 15:46 
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PaulSavage said:
I have been fascinated by gorillas since I was very young and no they do not eat meat given half the chance, they could easily kill / eat other animals but they live off vegetation, an adult male eats almost 20kg of it a day.
You would struggle to find a single vegan that would support anything that decimates animal life.


If you give a captive gorilla meat they eat it

Your fascination obviously did not reach to finding anything out
drewIcon...30-11-2013 @ 15:49 
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I thought Joplin choked on a sandwich?
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PaulSavage said:
IainKendrick said:
This is garbage. And I am being quite polite.
The consensus is we evolved as omnivours with meat being a small but important part of are diet. Further more we were not the first species of humans to eat and cook meat.
We are tremendously adaptive species and full omnuvires. Only since the agricultural revolution was being a vegitarian or vegan fully realizable by large numbers of reasons.
I fully respect vegetarians or vegans. Particularly there moral take on eating meat. However dont back track and make up rubbish to suit this agenda.

Explain why meat is important.


Explain why he should bother when you show such little regard for reasoned debate supported with evidence
JamesHIcon...30-11-2013 @ 15:50 
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Post Edited: 30.11.2013 @ 15:52 PM by JamesH
PaulSavage said:
Been eating as an omnivore my whole life, having to eat 5lb of meat, fish and poultry daily to get up to over 17 stone fairly lean, and then my kidneys broke down, nearly died. Switched to being vegetarian, gained a bunch of muscle eating a lot less, hit a bunch of personal bests, felt better, saved a load of money. Where's the stupid in this?


5lbs daily? 17 stone 'fairly lean?' and THEN you gained some muscle...? Where has it all gone?

And what kind of 'authority' is Steve Pavlina? A self-help shyster with no apparent relevant scientific background!
hermanIcon...30-11-2013 @ 15:51 
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IainKendrick said:
This is garbage. And I am being quite polite.


+1 so many facepalms.

also +1 on Humans being omnivores.

It just requires a small amount of logic to figure what we 'should' be eating.
hermanIcon...30-11-2013 @ 15:58 
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hermit
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PaulSavage said:
I have been fascinated by gorillas since I was very young and no they do not eat meat given half the chance, they could easily kill / eat other animals but they live off vegetation, an adult male eats almost 20kg of it a day.
You would struggle to find a single vegan that would support anything that decimates animal life.


Gorrillas have a large complicated digestive tract which is designed to break down the very limited nutrition in leaves, with the help of bacteria and what not. They are specialists, and are hence endangered! They sit around all day eating their leaves non stop, they have to, to have any hope of having enough calorie intake.

Whatever vegan diet you are living off is not at all comparable to the diet of a Gorilla.


Furthermore, it is not meat/protein intake that stresses the kidneys, but more so the muscle metabolism associated with hard physical work. I have a relative with kidney disease and meet for lengthy discussions with nephrology consultants every few weeks. Not one of them has suggested reducing protein intake even for someone with advanced CKD/total kidney failure. Those ideas are seen as old fashioned and incorrect.
hermanIcon...30-11-2013 @ 15:59 
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hermit
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martinb said:
If you give a captive gorilla meat they eat it
Your fascination obviously did not reach to finding anything out



Even deer will eat other animals (even other deer) given the opportunity.
hermanIcon...30-11-2013 @ 16:09 
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hermit
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PaulSavage said:
Explain why meat is important.


No one is saying you need Meat to live, or in fact be healthy for that matter. Our modern world provides many options for nutritional intake.

But Animals are very nutrient dense, they give you high quality fat, protein, vitamins, minerals and things like collagen in spades which are difficult to find in plant matter.

Modern Vegan diets involve a lot of processed rubbish which IS definitely bad for you. Fair play if you manage to eat fairly natural and healthy while vegan, as it is hard work.

Ideal Human diet would be what we evolved with; Fruit, Nuts, Starchy Tubers, Wild Fish/Ruminants/Birds/Sea Mammals etc, maybe greenery/fibrous stuff for bulk and stuff like ocassional honey if you could find it.

Now, out of these could you survive off; Fruit, Nuts, Potatoes, greenery etc..? You indeed could, but probably at a very light bodyweight and without much energy/strength.
PaulSavageIcon...30-11-2013 @ 16:09 
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JamesH said:
5lbs daily? 17 stone 'fairly lean?' and THEN you gained some muscle...? Where has it all gone?
And what kind of 'authority' is Steve Pavlina? A self-help shyster with no apparent relevant scientific background!

Yes 5lb daily. I'm now heavier than I was then, and a bit leaner, after only just starting lifting heavy again, so nowhere.
PaulSavageIcon...30-11-2013 @ 16:22 
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Post Edited: 30.11.2013 @ 16:23 PM by PaulSavage
herman said:
No one is saying you need Meat to live, or in fact be healthy for that matter. Our modern world provides many options for nutritional intake.
But Animals are very nutrient dense, they give you high quality fat, protein, vitamins, minerals and things like collagen in spades which are difficult to find in plant matter.
Modern Vegan diets involve a lot of processed rubbish which IS definitely bad for you. Fair play if you manage to eat fairly natural and healthy while vegan, as it is hard work.
Ideal Human diet would be what we evolved with; Fruit, Nuts, Starchy Tubers, Wild Fish/Ruminants/Birds/Sea Mammals etc, maybe greenery/fibrous stuff for bulk and stuff like ocassional honey if you could find it.
Now, out of these could you survive off; Fruit, Nuts, Potatoes, greenery etc..? You indeed could, but probably at a very light bodyweight and without much energy/strength.

I have no experience on a vegan diet, just vegetarian but can say for me personally I find it much easier holding onto muscle now as opposed to when i was eating meat. Quorn (a fungus from a plant to those who don't know) in particular I find works very very well for me as a protein source. I can maintain 250lb bodyweight leaner than most people now without eating a ton or training like a mad man, when eating meat I had to do both all the time.
dan302Icon...30-11-2013 @ 16:25 
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gorillas do supplement their diets with meat, they dont hunt but will occasionally scavenge meat, chimps certainly do,
FazcIcon...30-11-2013 @ 16:25 
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Well I'm just going to say it, if you're 17 stone and lean it's not the f**king green beans that's doing it.
PaulSavageIcon...30-11-2013 @ 16:28 
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Fazc said:Well I'm just going to say it, if you're 17 stone and lean it's not the f**king green beans that's doing it.

I eat a lot of green beans but if your implying I'm on gear then no I'm not.

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