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Emperor_Naseem | ... | 20-09-2006 @ 16:44 | |
As seen on t-nation Member 8, 192 posts SQ 170, BP 125, DL 220515.0 kgs @ 85kgs UnEq | And, to work the lower back after injury, THE MOST safest exercise one can do for it are reverse hypers - they are great in prehab and rehab situations. Shame the sugden centre doesnt have one, but you can improvise at home using bodyweight only. | ||
Adam | ... | 20-09-2006 @ 16:48 | |
Gone squatting Member 12, 386 posts SQ 250, BP 155, DL 260665.0 kgs @ 90kgs UnEq | You are saying tailor a program to suit your own needs, how do you know LGB hasn't done that? She has had back problems in the past, so she has chosen to do an exercise that will assist her squats and deadlifts without putting her back at risk. | ||
Emperor_Naseem | ... | 20-09-2006 @ 16:51 | |
As seen on t-nation Member 8, 192 posts SQ 170, BP 125, DL 220515.0 kgs @ 85kgs UnEq | Originally posted by Adam... I'm not questioning your ability to have an opinion, but if someone who is significantly stronger than you uses a particular exercise that improves there squat or deadlift, why would you say that this is not a good exercise? What is it about yourself that makes you correct? There is a difference between stating your opinion (which you are perfectly entitled to do) and telling someone that an exercise is crap and not worth doing without giving any reason for it, other than you don't think the exercise is worth doing. I thought someone would use the old, "well that person is stronger than me so I will do what they do" argument. Sure I believe in the value of empirical evidence. But I won't follow blindly what people stronger than me do if I dont agree with it. I have put on this earth to think freely for myself. If society never challenged any beliefs or ideas it would never be progressive. This sort of thinking is non-intellectual - you are selecting one variable out of potentially hundreds, and linking this variable with that particular person's strength - this is illogical. | ||
Emperor_Naseem | ... | 20-09-2006 @ 16:51 | |
As seen on t-nation Member 8, 192 posts SQ 170, BP 125, DL 220515.0 kgs @ 85kgs UnEq | Originally posted by Adam... You are saying tailor a program to suit your own needs, how do you know LGB hasn't done that? She has had back problems in the past, so she has chosen to do an exercise that will assist her squats and deadlifts without putting her back at risk. And thats good, but I think that there are better options. | ||
Adam | ... | 20-09-2006 @ 16:52 | |
Gone squatting Member 12, 386 posts SQ 250, BP 155, DL 260665.0 kgs @ 90kgs UnEq | Reverse hypers will not make her quads stronger, and will probably only have minimal effect on her hams, nothing to increase her squats/deads. Leg press will cause significantly less stress to the lower back than a squat variation which you suggested earlier. | ||
Adam | ... | 20-09-2006 @ 16:54 | |
Gone squatting Member 12, 386 posts SQ 250, BP 155, DL 260665.0 kgs @ 90kgs UnEq | Originally posted by Emperor_Naseem... Originally posted by Adam... You are saying tailor a program to suit your own needs, how do you know LGB hasn't done that? She has had back problems in the past, so she has chosen to do an exercise that will assist her squats and deadlifts without putting her back at risk. And thats good, but I think that there are better options. Well thats a matter of opinion. Like i have said before, powerlifters have used leg press with great results. You are entitled to your opinion that there may be better exercises for her, but many would disagree. | ||
Emperor_Naseem | ... | 20-09-2006 @ 16:55 | |
As seen on t-nation Member 8, 192 posts SQ 170, BP 125, DL 220515.0 kgs @ 85kgs UnEq | Post Edited: 20.09.2006 @ 16:57 PM Originally posted by Adam... Reverse hypers will not make her quads stronger, and will probably only have minimal effect on her hams, nothing to increase her squats/deads. Leg press will cause significantly less stress to the lower back than a squat variation which you suggested earlier. "Reverse hypers will not make her quads stronger" I know, and for the hundreth time, this is why I suggest squat variations. "and will probably only have minimal effect on her hams" Absolute rubbish! The most important function of the hams is hip extension, NOT knee flexion, as most gym weenies believe. Reverse hypers work the entire posterior chain. "Leg press will cause significantly less stress to the lower back than a squat variation which you suggested earlier." Not necessarily, and I didnt say this above. In fact, the leg press can put a significant stress on the lower back, although I cannot quantitatively say how much compared to a squat. Point is, Joe can squat, she said it herself at the beginning of her log. If the lower back is injured and you can't squat, split squat and step up variations are better and safer exercises for maintaining and developing quad strength than the leg press. | ||
Adam | ... | 20-09-2006 @ 17:03 | |
Gone squatting Member 12, 386 posts SQ 250, BP 155, DL 260665.0 kgs @ 90kgs UnEq | I know she can squat, but she also needs to be aware of doing too much volume for the lower back. Leg press would not stress the lower back in the same way front squats would or some other squat variation. I know what muscles reverse hypers work, i know they work the hamstrings. That doesn't mean hams will get as strong doing hypers as they would doing leg press. Most people use a lot more on leg press than when doing hypers. If you are squating 200kg+ how is doing body weight hypers going to make your hamstrings stronger. They WON'T, thats not to say they aren't worth doing, they are a great exercise for rehab. | ||
Cuddles | ... | 20-09-2006 @ 17:10 | |
Eat.Cycle.Sleep.Win Member 2, 12511 posts SQ 190, BP 150, DL 280620.0 kgs @ 99kgs UnEq Administrator | I'd be interested to know (genuinely) where you got the evidence that leg-press is bad for your back? I have seen much evidence suggesting that the leg-press performed incorrectly can be, but not when performed correctly. If this is the case, then it is the same as any of the other exercises mentioned in this thread, squats, deads, stepups, split squats, etc, performed incorrectly, they are all bad for the back. Haris, you also said earlier that this is a science, so we hypothesise, experiment, and conclude etc. If Joe hypothesised that doing leg-press would build her squat and deadlift, so she leg pressed, and got stronger in the leg-press and the squat and the deadlift, would you still argue that she shouldnt be leg-pressing? Isnt she then following the same scientific model that you yourself espouse? | ||
Emperor_Naseem | ... | 20-09-2006 @ 17:12 | |
As seen on t-nation Member 8, 192 posts SQ 170, BP 125, DL 220515.0 kgs @ 85kgs UnEq | "Leg press would not stress the lower back in the same way front squats would or some other squat variation" Yes but it is still not the safest exercise for it. "That doesn't mean hams will get as strong doing hypers as they would doing leg press." Even if switching to reverse hypers would mean losing a little strength in the hammies, (which I am not sure they would) I would rather lose a little strength in my hamstrings than potentially aggravate a lower back problem though. When you are using the word strength here, please define what you mean, and how would you measure hamstring strength by what you have just said. "Most people use a lot more on leg press than when doing hypers" Obviously, but how does this mean it is superior to all other exercises? "If you are squating 200kg+ how is doing body weight hypers going to make your hamstrings stronger." I am saying that in a rehab situation for your lower back they are a safe exercise. Of course doing 50 bodyweight hypers isnt going to drive your squat up if you can squat 200kg+, as you are not using the right loading parameters for strength. | ||
Emperor_Naseem | ... | 20-09-2006 @ 17:17 | |
As seen on t-nation Member 8, 192 posts SQ 170, BP 125, DL 220515.0 kgs @ 85kgs UnEq | OLLY "Haris, you also said earlier that this is a science, so we hypothesise, experiment, and conclude etc. If Joe hypothesised that doing leg-press would build her squat and deadlift, so she leg pressed, and got stronger in the leg-press and the squat and the deadlift, would you still argue that she shouldnt be leg-pressing? Isnt she then following the same scientific model that you yourself espouse?" For a start, beginners will make good gains in strength just smelling iron! Pretty much anything they do with any loading parameters and any exercise will increase strength. Which is why, if you took an untrained person, measured their squat, then put them on a leg press machine routine for a month, and let them squat again, no doubt their squat would be higher. This doesnt mean though that the leg press was the best method of getting there. I know the situation is different here though as the leg press in the present context is being used as an assistance exercise. Personally, I would just squat, and get my lower back stronger. | ||
Adam | ... | 20-09-2006 @ 17:28 | |
Gone squatting Member 12, 386 posts SQ 250, BP 155, DL 260665.0 kgs @ 90kgs UnEq | In powerlifting, leg press will cause significantly less stress on the lower back than squats, deads, front squats. There is probably no powerlifting related exercise that does not carry some degree of risk to the lower back. Some more than others. I never said it was superior to all exercises. Where did i say that? What i suggested was that leg press was a good assistance exercise that will help improve her squat. Is it superior/inferior to front squats? No, its a different exercise. | ||
tokar | ... | 20-09-2006 @ 19:03 | |
Невыносимо Высокомерный (RIP) Member 11, 965 posts SQ 190, BP 140, DL 255585.0 kgs @ 95kgs UnEq | Jesus, even I don't get into arguments like this. Not these days anyway - I've learnt my lesson. My contribution to this discussion will just be to observe that I fully agree with Haris that powerlifting is all about science, and not remotely about art. What people mean when they say "training is as much art as it science" is usually that there are many areas where no one has a definitive answer - either because different things will work for different people or because we haven't reached the stage where conclusions can confidently be drawn. But it's still science. | ||
Rob | ... | 14-10-2006 @ 20:16 | |
Does f*ck all for SugdenBarbell.co.uk Member 1, 7173 posts SQ 182.5, BP 110, DL 205497.5 kgs @ 107kgs UnEq Administrator | Noticed this image of Andy Bolton (the world deadlift record holder) and thought you all, especially Haris, might appreciate it! http://www.powerliftinguk.com/image.php?u=595&dateline=116... | ||
Emperor_Naseem | ... | 18-10-2006 @ 20:44 | |
As seen on t-nation Member 8, 192 posts SQ 170, BP 125, DL 220515.0 kgs @ 85kgs UnEq | I can't make out what he is doing in it. Other than looking ugly. Why would i like it? | ||