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glen_danburyIconhybrid squats12-12-2014 @ 10:15 
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Member 735, 1193 posts
SQ 220, BP 135, DL 235
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been trying to find the optimal squat form for powerlifting. after having hip issues I moved from low bar to high bar for an extended period. high bar is great but I know I am not as strong using this position.

as such reintroduced variations into my accessory work to find the optimal squat form for me.

structurally I am
*short legged
*long torso
* 40% of body weight is made up of glutes

seen johny candito recommend high bar with wider stance but this felt awful. at present I am finding low bar with narrow stance is my strongest position.

whats everyone elses structure and preferred set up.

with my structure is it a flexibility/new technique issue why I find standard 'hybrid' squats so wrong and would I be better persevering?
ThingIcon...12-12-2014 @ 10:28 
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a large fingered spastic that demolishes plant
Member 89, 31706 posts
SQ 260, BP 220, DL 290
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would like to know myself as i'm also of the same body type in long torse and short legged.
also have SI joint and Lumbar issues but a optimum squat stance / tech would be great to learn for the given leverages i and you (glen) have
ThingIcon...12-12-2014 @ 10:41 
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a large fingered spastic that demolishes plant
Member 89, 31706 posts
SQ 260, BP 220, DL 290
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my thinking is this _ I could very well be talking bulls**t too

1) Middle to High bar
2) shoulder width stance
3) feet position at 10 to 2
4) Head Neutral
5) Flat shoes or if you don't have great flexibility oly shoes
glen_danburyIcon...12-12-2014 @ 10:59 
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Member 735, 1193 posts
SQ 220, BP 135, DL 235
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key issue I forgot cheers - currently using oly shoes (adipowers). tried wider with flats but again felt like my hips wanted to explode in order to hit depth.
AMH_PowerIcon...12-12-2014 @ 11:13 
we ride at dawn
Member 4363, 1442 posts
SQ 310, BP 250, DL 320
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Yes my brothers!!!!!

I too, have an extremely long spine for my height, and some crazy midget legs. This isn't even ratio, this is like at a venue sat down, I'm the tallest dude about. Everyone stands up including me, then i'm the shortest!

The good news is, an athletic/high bar squat is your answer to big lifts!

Why???

Well, you will have minimal torso lean. Watch this space, I'm about to crack open microsoft paint and do some sick drawings to illustrate the s**t out of what I mean...
Back in 10!
ThingIcon...12-12-2014 @ 11:13 
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a large fingered spastic that demolishes plant
Member 89, 31706 posts
SQ 260, BP 220, DL 290
770.0 kgs @ 142kgs UnEq
glen_danbury said:key issue I forgot cheers - currently using oly shoes (adipowers). tried wider with flats but again felt like my hips wanted to explode in order to hit depth.


you tried looking at hip mobility struff the kelly starrett recommends? some of them helped me out
AMH_PowerIcon...12-12-2014 @ 11:46 
we ride at dawn
Member 4363, 1442 posts
SQ 310, BP 250, DL 320
880.0 kgs @ 104kgs UnEq
Glen,

I can only presume you feel strongest with low bar and narrow stance because you've practiced/trained like that.

However, IF you are long spined short legged, then higher bar is absolutely the way to go....

Here's why...

http://www.angelware.co.uk/longspine.jpg

I know my guys have no arms... but anyway I'll explain. Each guy is the same measurements, just one doing low bar and the other high (feet position not so important right now, will cover this after). The bar must always remain mid foot in any type of squat for maximal force production. Forward or rear of mid foot will introduce more stress that does not assist the lift (forwards of mid foot will give gravity a leverage on the lower spine, which doesn't need to be there).

Anyway, look at the beauty of short legs and long spine, the torso lean can be minimal as demonstrated by number 1 in the drawing. However, if you do go low bar, not only are you undoing the pro's of being built how you are, you are actually putting yourself at a disadvantage as a longer spine with lean will be much harder for spine erectors to deal with than if you had a short spine, as demonstrated by drawing 2 getting rekt.

So long spines can be epic, or seriously s**t, depending on how you use it. A shorter spine individual can go off strengths, weaknesses and 'feel' of the lift to determine. A short spine with lean can be dealt with, but in contrast it's hard for a short spine to employ quads while squatting as the lean will sit the knees further back making it more posterior chain dominant.

The downside to higher bar is the knees will come further forwards and have a greater load.... but we can all leg press f**k loads more than we squat as quads are s**t loads stronger than a lower back, and not only that.... who gives a s**t that the knee angle isn't great when you have short legs!?!?!? the shorter leg doesn't give a s**t as the difference is minimal. A crazy long legged person would, as the difference wouldn't be the knee an inch or two over the toes... but a fair distance.

Further to this, the apparent distance the knees go over the toes is only relevant from the Z axis (or horizontal plane when viewed from the side, like in the drawing). When the knees are pushed diagonally out instead of directly forwards, 2 awesome things happen, the knee doesn't come as far forward (when viewed from the side; the only relevant mechanic for torque in squat), but even better, it actually shortens the femur (when viewed from the side). A shorter femur means the hips are closer to the bar which further reduces lean, AND further reduces how much the knee is required to move forwards.

Thank God for my short legs and long spine. Amen.
Uncle_WillyIcon...12-12-2014 @ 11:48 
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Thing said:my thinking is this _ I could very well be talking bulls**t too

1) Middle to High bar
2) shoulder width stance
3) feet position at 10 to 2
4) Head Neutral
5) Flat shoes or if you don't have great flexibility oly shoes


That's pretty much how I squat but I do wider than shoulder width with the feet. Too narrow and I get hip pain. But going wider means depth isn't so good. Not a problem for me so much as I don't compete in powerlifting.
AdamTIcon...12-12-2014 @ 12:32 
AKA the great reset
Member 4056, 5206 posts
I have quite long legs

I like a wider than shoulder and squat high bar
bezaIcon...12-12-2014 @ 12:50 
I hit a pb today with a chest infection
Member 3283, 1921 posts
AMH_Power said:Glen,

I can only presume you feel strongest with low bar and narrow stance because you've practiced/trained like that.

However, IF you are long spined short legged, then higher bar is absolutely the way to go....

Here's why...

http://www.angelware.co.uk/longspine.jpg

I know my guys have no arms... but anyway I'll explain. Each guy is the same measurements, just one doing low bar and the other high (feet position not so important right now, will cover this after). The bar must always remain mid foot in any type of squat for maximal force production. Forward or rear of mid foot will introduce more stress that does not assist the lift (forwards of mid foot will give gravity a leverage on the lower spine, which doesn't need to be there).

Anyway, look at the beauty of short legs and long spine, the torso lean can be minimal as demonstrated by number 1 in the drawing. However, if you do go low bar, not only are you undoing the pro's of being built how you are, you are actually putting yourself at a disadvantage as a longer spine with lean will be much harder for spine erectors to deal with than if you had a short spine, as demonstrated by drawing 2 getting rekt.

So long spines can be epic, or seriously s**t, depending on how you use it. A shorter spine individual can go off strengths, weaknesses and 'feel' of the lift to determine. A short spine with lean can be dealt with, but in contrast it's hard for a short spine to employ quads while squatting as the lean will sit the knees further back making it more posterior chain dominant.

The downside to higher bar is the knees will come further forwards and have a greater load.... but we can all leg press f**k loads more than we squat as quads are s**t loads stronger than a lower back, and not only that.... who gives a s**t that the knee angle isn't great when you have short legs!?!?!? the shorter leg doesn't give a s**t as the difference is minimal. A crazy long legged person would, as the difference wouldn't be the knee an inch or two over the toes... but a fair distance.

Further to this, the apparent distance the knees go over the toes is only relevant from the Z axis (or horizontal plane when viewed from the side, like in the drawing). When the knees are pushed diagonally out instead of directly forwards, 2 awesome things happen, the knee doesn't come as far forward (when viewed from the side; the only relevant mechanic for torque in squat), but even better, it actually shortens the femur (when viewed from the side). A shorter femur means the hips are closer to the bar which further reduces lean, AND further reduces how much the knee is required to move forwards.

Thank God for my short legs and long spine. Amen.



Nice post, drawings too!
ThingIcon...12-12-2014 @ 12:55 
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a large fingered spastic that demolishes plant
Member 89, 31706 posts
SQ 260, BP 220, DL 290
770.0 kgs @ 142kgs UnEq
AMH_Power said:Glen,

I can only presume you feel strongest with low bar and narrow stance because you've practiced/trained like that.

However, IF you are long spined short legged, then higher bar is absolutely the way to go....

Here's why...

http://www.angelware.co.uk/longspine.jpg

I know my guys have no arms... but anyway I'll explain. Each guy is the same measurements, just one doing low bar and the other high (feet position not so important right now, will cover this after). The bar must always remain mid foot in any type of squat for maximal force production. Forward or rear of mid foot will introduce more stress that does not assist the lift (forwards of mid foot will give gravity a leverage on the lower spine, which doesn't need to be there).

Anyway, look at the beauty of short legs and long spine, the torso lean can be minimal as demonstrated by number 1 in the drawing. However, if you do go low bar, not only are you undoing the pro's of being built how you are, you are actually putting yourself at a disadvantage as a longer spine with lean will be much harder for spine erectors to deal with than if you had a short spine, as demonstrated by drawing 2 getting rekt.

So long spines can be epic, or seriously s**t, depending on how you use it. A shorter spine individual can go off strengths, weaknesses and 'feel' of the lift to determine. A short spine with lean can be dealt with, but in contrast it's hard for a short spine to employ quads while squatting as the lean will sit the knees further back making it more posterior chain dominant.

The downside to higher bar is the knees will come further forwards and have a greater load.... but we can all leg press f**k loads more than we squat as quads are s**t loads stronger than a lower back, and not only that.... who gives a s**t that the knee angle isn't great when you have short legs!?!?!? the shorter leg doesn't give a s**t as the difference is minimal. A crazy long legged person would, as the difference wouldn't be the knee an inch or two over the toes... but a fair distance.

Further to this, the apparent distance the knees go over the toes is only relevant from the Z axis (or horizontal plane when viewed from the side, like in the drawing). When the knees are pushed diagonally out instead of directly forwards, 2 awesome things happen, the knee doesn't come as far forward (when viewed from the side; the only relevant mechanic for torque in squat), but even better, it actually shortens the femur (when viewed from the side). A shorter femur means the hips are closer to the bar which further reduces lean, AND further reduces how much the knee is required to move forwards.

Thank God for my short legs and long spine. Amen.


so would you say that opening your foot position and widening you stance a little be more could be more beneficial?
AMH_PowerIcon...12-12-2014 @ 14:54 
we ride at dawn
Member 4363, 1442 posts
SQ 310, BP 250, DL 320
880.0 kgs @ 104kgs UnEq
Thing said:
so would you say that opening your foot position and widening you stance a little be more could be more beneficial?


More beneficial for long legs/short spine. In theory it's beneficial for all, but with long spine there will be a cut off at there it will just go tits.

Similar to bench, for every cm wider from close grip, you get stronger, but then there is a point where it wont gradually get weaker...it will just ramp to ninja nails within a very short space of movement.
ThingIcon...12-12-2014 @ 14:56 
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a large fingered spastic that demolishes plant
Member 89, 31706 posts
SQ 260, BP 220, DL 290
770.0 kgs @ 142kgs UnEq
AMH_Power said:
More beneficial for long legs/short spine. In theory it's beneficial for all, but with long spine there will be a cut off at there it will just go tits.
Similar to bench, for every cm wider from close grip, you get stronger, but then there is a point where it wont gradually get weaker...it will just ramp to ninja nails within a very short space of movement.


i use a shoulder width with a 10-2 foot position but a medium bar position. could change that to a high bar position and see the difference in the next phase in january
AMH_PowerIcon...12-12-2014 @ 15:28 
we ride at dawn
Member 4363, 1442 posts
SQ 310, BP 250, DL 320
880.0 kgs @ 104kgs UnEq
Thing said:
i use a shoulder width with a 10-2 foot position but a medium bar position. could change that to a high bar position and see the difference in the next phase in january


Be good to see how it affects you for better or worse, experience is always better than any words!
glen_danburyIcon...12-12-2014 @ 16:31 
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Member 735, 1193 posts
SQ 220, BP 135, DL 235
590.0 kgs @ 80kgs UnEq
AMH_Power said:Glen,

I can only presume you feel strongest with low bar and narrow stance because you've practiced/trained like that.

However, IF you are long spined short legged, then higher bar is absolutely the way to go....

Here's why...

http://www.angelware.co.uk/longspine.jpg

I know my guys have no arms... but anyway I'll explain. Each guy is the same measurements, just one doing low bar and the other high (feet position not so important right now, will cover this after). The bar must always remain mid foot in any type of squat for maximal force production. Forward or rear of mid foot will introduce more stress that does not assist the lift (forwards of mid foot will give gravity a leverage on the lower spine, which doesn't need to be there).

Anyway, look at the beauty of short legs and long spine, the torso lean can be minimal as demonstrated by number 1 in the drawing. However, if you do go low bar, not only are you undoing the pro's of being built how you are, you are actually putting yourself at a disadvantage as a longer spine with lean will be much harder for spine erectors to deal with than if you had a short spine, as demonstrated by drawing 2 getting rekt.

So long spines can be epic, or seriously s**t, depending on how you use it. A shorter spine individual can go off strengths, weaknesses and 'feel' of the lift to determine. A short spine with lean can be dealt with, but in contrast it's hard for a short spine to employ quads while squatting as the lean will sit the knees further back making it more posterior chain dominant.

The downside to higher bar is the knees will come further forwards and have a greater load.... but we can all leg press f**k loads more than we squat as quads are s**t loads stronger than a lower back, and not only that.... who gives a s**t that the knee angle isn't great when you have short legs!?!?!? the shorter leg doesn't give a s**t as the difference is minimal. A crazy long legged person would, as the difference wouldn't be the knee an inch or two over the toes... but a fair distance.

Further to this, the apparent distance the knees go over the toes is only relevant from the Z axis (or horizontal plane when viewed from the side, like in the drawing). When the knees are pushed diagonally out instead of directly forwards, 2 awesome things happen, the knee doesn't come as far forward (when viewed from the side; the only relevant mechanic for torque in squat), but even better, it actually shortens the femur (when viewed from the side). A shorter femur means the hips are closer to the bar which further reduces lean, AND further reduces how much the knee is required to move forwards.

Thank God for my short legs and long spine. Amen.


thanks. this was always my thoughts when I swapped out from low bar to high bar. being doing high bar for about a year now and max has only been 210kg compared to 220kg low bar.

maybe I still haven't transisted enough as I seem to want to lean once the weight gets heavy with high bar. moved back to low bar after deadlifts as an assistance exercise and I an near enough matching my high bar work when fresh.

in the dhort term I have ten weeks until BDFPA Single lift finals and need to do whatever is yge strongest on the day. However I do agree with you so will squat high bar on squat day and just do low bar as assistance on deadlift days

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