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Squat Progression - from powerlifting style squat to real squat
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| Fazc |  | ... | 15-10-2012 @ 01:30 |
 Sports an extremely muscular arse. Member 38, 6253 posts | Tom_Martin said:If you have a legitimate concern that you can put to me in an understandable manner, I will be the first in line for looking out for that s**t and making sure it doesn't happen! No, I now don't think it was a legitimate concern because you've proved me wrong so spectacularly! The concern I had was from my own previous experiences of knee/quad pain with more forward tracking knees and the subsequent reduction of any knee pain with more vertical shins (and box squatting). So while my knees feel great now the catalyst for your changes, unreliable depth and feeling uncomfortable in the hole (giggity), is something I still struggle with. Perhaps what I needed was to continue improving my quad strength to allow me to squat that way safely, rather than abandoning it altogether. Who knows. It is something which I'm going to experiment with, as I'm at the 'building' stage as I don't have any comps lined up for another good few months. So perhaps I'll add some videos to this thread over the next few weeks too, if that's alright. | ||
| Tom_Martin | | ... | 15-10-2012 @ 01:51 |
 No one believed him anyway. Member 958, 11411 posts SQ 410, BP 215, DL 4251050.0 kgs @ 100kgs UnEq | Fazc said: No, I now don't think it was a legitimate concern because you've proved me wrong so spectacularly! The concern I had was from my own previous experiences of knee/quad pain with more forward tracking knees and the subsequent reduction of any knee pain with more vertical shins (and box squatting). So while my knees feel great now the catalyst for your changes, unreliable depth and feeling uncomfortable in the hole (giggity), is something I still struggle with. Perhaps what I needed was to continue improving my quad strength to allow me to squat that way safely, rather than abandoning it altogether. Who knows. It is something which I'm going to experiment with, as I'm at the 'building' stage as I don't have any comps lined up for another good few months. So perhaps I'll add some videos to this thread over the next few weeks too, if that's alright. Yes of course, everyone who wants to should join in! Reading that, it seems like you didn't fix your knee troubles, you just avoided them. Transcended the situation. If I might attempt to explain why your knees may hurt, as mine did... If you are a lot stronger at squatting with your knees back, then you will find a way of getting up from the bottom of a knees forward squat with a lot more weight than you should be using. This basically means...you WILL use a lot more weight than you should. The problem here is, even though you are squatting the weights up 'fine', you are not using the muscles that need to be trained in order to do it without knee pain. On top of that, you are also doing massively overloaded negatives on those very muscles, by descending with your knees forward. So you destroy that muscle on the way down, fatiguing it to the point where it is less than useless on the way up, squat up in such a way that does nothing to strengthen the poor muscle, probably with relative ease, and then wonder why your knees hurt so much on such an easy squat. I don't believe the actual flexion of the knee joint is the issue...you could stand there bending and straightening your leg all day and not f**k your knees up. It's when you have to do it with a weight that certain muscles can't handle. So then you have to find that muscle, find a way of bringing it up to par and then figure out how to use it when you squat. It is definitely vastus medialis for me. It is so closely related to my knee pain that I often mistakenly think I have knee pain when I just have massively inflamed tendons coming directly from that muscle because I have destroyed it by squatting weights it is in no way capable of handling. | ||
| Tom_Martin | | ... | 15-10-2012 @ 01:59 |
No one believed him anyway. Member 958, 11411 posts SQ 410, BP 215, DL 4251050.0 kgs @ 100kgs UnEq | Another thing worth mentioning, if you do a slow controlled descent into your squat like you would for a low bar hips and knees back squat... that's really going to f**k with your knees (muscles around them) if you try squatting with them forwards. The easiest way of making them more capable of handling the load, is to ask them to handle it for less time. Glutes and hamstrings are postural muscles, they're used to handling loads for longer times. They like slow descents. | ||
| Fazc | | ... | 15-10-2012 @ 08:47 |
Sports an extremely muscular arse. Member 38, 6253 posts | Post Edited: 15.10.2012 @ 08:57 AM by Fazc Tom_Martin said:If you are a lot stronger at squatting with your knees back, then you will find a way of getting up from the bottom of a knees forward squat with a lot more weight than you should be using. This basically means...you WILL use a lot more weight than you should. Which is exactly what happened. My knees would shoot back on the ascent, shoving my hips back and inevitably my torso forward to balance the weight. Tom_Martin said:It is definitely vastus medialis for me. It is so closely related to my knee pain that I often mistakenly think I have knee pain when I just have massively inflamed tendons coming directly from that muscle because I have destroyed it by squatting weights it is in no way capable of handling. Vastus intermedius (or rectus femoris I don't f**king know what its called) for me, where it attaches to the kneecap. My knee pain was typically high above the knee right on the tendons. My vastus medialis is relatively well developed probably because of all the toes out squatting I did earlier in the year. But lateralis isn't so much. But whatever it is I imagine the same principle applies to what you're talking about, some of the muscles I was using weren't capable of handling the weight on the way up. This relates to something Kelly Starr said about the angle of the feet. He was pimping out toes forward squatting as a correctional exercise for quad development and ultimately knee health. He believed that toes out squatting emphasised the medialis to the point where if those were done exclusively they could lead to imbalances. So medium-close stance squats acted as a correctional exercise for those with poorly developed lateralis and in extreme cases intermedius. I wonder if the inverse holds any value for you? You seem to squat with toes mostly forward. Could some specific toes out squatting have indirectly helped your knee pain? If I can get to the gym tonight, I'll begin with these type of squats. I've noticed my ankle flexibility is horrendous though, so this will be a struggle. | ||
| dr_hazbun | | ... | 15-10-2012 @ 09:50 |
tabbouleh and fattoush salads were very refreshing Member 267, 8548 posts SQ 220, BP 165, DL 250635.0 kgs @ 90kgs Eq | My medialis is very well developed. Lateralis, however, is very underdeveloped considering how regularly I squat. | ||
| Tom_Martin | | ... | 15-10-2012 @ 10:13 |
No one believed him anyway. Member 958, 11411 posts SQ 410, BP 215, DL 4251050.0 kgs @ 100kgs UnEq | dr_hazbun said:My medialis is very well developed. Lateralis, however, is very underdeveloped considering how regularly I squat. I feel both mine are pretty equally underdeveloped, HOWEVER, only the medialis hurts. Regardless of which it is, the correctional tools are the same, you don't even have to worry about what the weakness is... Front Squats! Initiate the descent by pushing your knees forwards, and control the weight all the way down to the bottom, pause at the bottom. When you stand up, really focus on keeping the knees forwards, and getting your hips directly under the bar as quick as possible, and lifting your chest to the ceiling instead of pushing the ground with your feet. You must greatly reduce the weight to be able to achieve this, that's a good thing though as it makes sure you're not overloading weak muscles. THOROUGHLY WARM UP THE KNEE JOINT 1. Some form of CV that doesn't involve impact. Stationary bike, eliptical thingy.... rowing machine? Don't go mental jut do a very gentle 10 minutes, get things moving. (I am too lazy to do this!!!!!!) 2. Very low weight resistance machine stuff that takes your knee joint through a decent range of motion. I've recently started spending some time on an empty leg press machine, pounding out 50 or so reps. Start by moving it as far as comfortable for a few reps, gradually increase the range of motion, concentrate on keeping your back forced against the seat and you will also stretch out the things that cause lower back rounding at the bottom of the squat. Usually by the last 10 reps I'm moving very comfortably. Alternatives/additions - leg extension machine, just pull the pin completely out. Double leg set of 10, single leg set of 10 on each side, start putting the pin back in on the lowest setting, repeat, go up again, repeat again...I dunno! 3. Attempt to squat the empty bar! This is usually pretty horrible for me.... I might do 3 very awkward reps then quite often find myself repeating step 2 again. Which is kind of s**t, and the whole reason for this post. If you can't comfortably warm up on an empty bar, which I can't, then you have to get creative. I imagine heavier guys would struggle the most with this, people see an empty bar and forget that their own bodyweight is involved. Other things I like are single leg stepups onto progressively higher boxes. And neoprene. I wouldn't even dare squat the empty bar without my rehbands. | ||
| Tom_Martin | | ... | 15-10-2012 @ 10:24 |
No one believed him anyway. Member 958, 11411 posts SQ 410, BP 215, DL 4251050.0 kgs @ 100kgs UnEq | Fazc said: I've noticed my ankle flexibility is horrendous though, so this will be a struggle. You COULD be an absolute mong and stretch them off doing typical against the wall calf exercises. OR you could make it properly specific and get more benefit...I can't remember where I saw this but I've been doing a lot of it recently. Load a bar up with 60kg. Deadlift it, probably need to do it with a snatch grip. With the bar in your hands at lockout, go into a full squat position, and rest the bar right on top of your knees. Making sure your knees are tracking over your toes, just let them stretch/push them in the direction your toes are pointing. Vary your toe angle and repeat. I think at least some of the time you should have your toes and knees going straight forwards for the sake of stretching them. The bar on top of your knees will be most effective like this I think. And some of the time they should be in the position you will squat in. | ||
| OwenL | | ... | 15-10-2012 @ 11:12 |
 has a tiny penis Member 2897, 5018 posts SQ 220, BP 140, DL 270630.0 kgs @ 82.2kgs UnEq | I don't do the above. But I do spend a lot of time warming up nowadays which does help  mobility exercises, stretches held for ages, LOTS of bar work, sitting in squat position and slowly adding weight. Makes for a much easier top set. | ||
| dr_hazbun | | ... | 15-10-2012 @ 20:42 |
tabbouleh and fattoush salads were very refreshing Member 267, 8548 posts SQ 220, BP 165, DL 250635.0 kgs @ 90kgs Eq | Tom_Martin said: I feel both mine are pretty equally underdeveloped, HOWEVER, only the medialis hurts. Regardless of which it is, the correctional tools are the same, you don't even have to worry about what the weakness is... Front Squats! Initiate the descent by pushing your knees forwards, and control the weight all the way down to the bottom, pause at the bottom. When you stand up, really focus on keeping the knees forwards, and getting your hips directly under the bar as quick as possible, and lifting your chest to the ceiling instead of pushing the ground with your feet. You must greatly reduce the weight to be able to achieve this, that's a good thing though as it makes sure you're not overloading weak muscles. THOROUGHLY WARM UP THE KNEE JOINT 1. Some form of CV that doesn't involve impact. Stationary bike, eliptical thingy.... rowing machine? Don't go mental jut do a very gentle 10 minutes, get things moving. (I am too lazy to do this!!!!!!) 2. Very low weight resistance machine stuff that takes your knee joint through a decent range of motion. I've recently started spending some time on an empty leg press machine, pounding out 50 or so reps. Start by moving it as far as comfortable for a few reps, gradually increase the range of motion, concentrate on keeping your back forced against the seat and you will also stretch out the things that cause lower back rounding at the bottom of the squat. Usually by the last 10 reps I'm moving very comfortably. Alternatives/additions - leg extension machine, just pull the pin completely out. Double leg set of 10, single leg set of 10 on each side, start putting the pin back in on the lowest setting, repeat, go up again, repeat again...I dunno! 3. Attempt to squat the empty bar! This is usually pretty horrible for me.... I might do 3 very awkward reps then quite often find myself repeating step 2 again. Which is kind of s**t, and the whole reason for this post. If you can't comfortably warm up on an empty bar, which I can't, then you have to get creative. I imagine heavier guys would struggle the most with this, people see an empty bar and forget that their own bodyweight is involved. Other things I like are single leg stepups onto progressively higher boxes. And neoprene. I wouldn't even dare squat the empty bar without my rehbands. I get excited about front squats, do them once, it hurts like f**k, lose interest in them. Allow 1 year to pass and repeat. That, in a nutshell, is my relationship with the front squat. That, in a nutshell, might be why I squat like a girl. | ||
| Fazc | | ... | 15-10-2012 @ 22:17 |
Sports an extremely muscular arse. Member 38, 6253 posts | Tom_Martin said:I can't remember where I saw this but I've been doing a lot of it recently. Load a bar up with 60kg. Deadlift it, probably need to do it with a snatch grip. I tried this with a 40kg bar, just sat there for a while rolling it around and sitting back and forth. I think I saw this on one of Pendlay's videos. Anyway video from tonight, form is pretty inconsistent, depth is off and flexibility definitely needs work. | ||
| Tom_Martin | | ... | 15-10-2012 @ 23:07 |
No one believed him anyway. Member 958, 11411 posts SQ 410, BP 215, DL 4251050.0 kgs @ 100kgs UnEq | Fazc said: I tried this with a 40kg bar, just sat there for a while rolling it around and sitting back and forth. I think I saw this on one of Pendlay's videos. Anyway video from tonight, form is pretty inconsistent, depth is off and flexibility definitely needs work. Well, you've made a start! I was surprised to see your mobility issues present here, I was always of the opinion that these are easier to do mobility wise, than your other style of squat. | ||
| Tom_Martin | | ... | 15-10-2012 @ 23:09 |
No one believed him anyway. Member 958, 11411 posts SQ 410, BP 215, DL 4251050.0 kgs @ 100kgs UnEq | This is worth sticking in here, 222.5 is the heaviest update I've posted here. Pleased with it too. | ||
| MarkClegg | | ... | 15-10-2012 @ 23:24 |
 knock knock !! who's there ?? OLD SCHOOL SUGDEN Member 212, 11439 posts SQ 325, BP 212.5, DL 370907.5 kgs @ 100kgs UnEq | You tied your hair into a bun ? I like it . Very cute x | ||
| Tom_Martin | | ... | 15-10-2012 @ 23:26 |
No one believed him anyway. Member 958, 11411 posts SQ 410, BP 215, DL 4251050.0 kgs @ 100kgs UnEq | MarkClegg said:You tied your hair into a bun ? I like it . Very cute x NO! never....it just....needs pony tailing....twice.... and then the bar....did some stuff to it f**k OFF!!! | ||
| MarkClegg | | ... | 15-10-2012 @ 23:33 |
knock knock !! who's there ?? OLD SCHOOL SUGDEN Member 212, 11439 posts SQ 325, BP 212.5, DL 370907.5 kgs @ 100kgs UnEq | Tom_Martin said: NO! never....it just....needs pony tailing....twice.... and then the bar....did some stuff to it f**k OFF!!! Well ! I'm just saying :-/ | ||