View All Posts: Dave284
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| » Pat Mendes (Go to post) | 15-11-2011 @ 21:35 | ||
| Impossible to say. Many have claimed to be clean. But what is 'clean', lifetime drug free? drug free at the time of testing? what if some people have higher natural t-levels? is that fair? too many shades of grey to make a judgement. | |||
| » Pat Mendes (Go to post) | 15-11-2011 @ 15:40 | ||
Steve said: I'm not sure that being a route to a better life is a justification or not. On that basis there would never be a reason for somebody from say the UK/US ... as they're certainly not going to go into weightlifting on the basis of getting a better life Potentially true. From a personal perspective, I would have respect for somebody doing it on the basis that they're are doing what it takes to win in their sport (in which everyone else is doing it too). | |||
| » Pat Mendes (Go to post) | 15-11-2011 @ 15:21 | ||
Steve said: You could use the same arguement for justifying why burglary was OK Possibly. Although potentially less so if WL was the route to a better life for somebody in a less developed country. | |||
| » Pat Mendes (Go to post) | 15-11-2011 @ 15:13 | ||
Steve said: I don't understand why we should respect somebody who decides to take drugs in a tested sport. They are breaking the rules in attempt to gain personal advantage over other people - they certainly don't get my respect. I guess it depends what is more important - winning or your morals. If your competition are all doing it, would you not do what it took to compete if it was your livelihood? | |||
| » Pat Mendes (Go to post) | 15-11-2011 @ 15:09 | ||
ursus said: perfect, sensible post . I agree. As, I've said throughout, there are many other factors at work in general. For instance we have no idea how many missed attempts it took to make 207, how regularly he might've been near that weight, whether he missed 180 and 190 on the way up etc. It just seems too big a coincidence that as soon as he starts getting tested regularly, his lifts and total drop significantly. | |||
| » Pat Mendes (Go to post) | 15-11-2011 @ 14:58 | ||
Wigan said: Sadly, i dont think the lad is going to go anywhere significant from here, but i hope he continues to lift and continues to enjoy it. Good luck to him. Think he's peaked? | |||
| » Pat Mendes (Go to post) | 15-11-2011 @ 14:50 | ||
| You are, of course, right, we'll never know. Nor should anybody see it as a negative things if people decide to use, its their choice and people should respect that. All I'm saying is, that my theory explains the Mendes situation. I'd love for him to put it together and get somewhere with it and I shall be interested to see where he goes from here. | |||
| » Pat Mendes (Go to post) | 15-11-2011 @ 14:42 | ||
Steve said: Top weightlifters from all Countries are required to comply with the ADAMS wherabouts system giving the IWF details of their wherabouts on a daily basis and a number of Countries, including Bulgaria were suspended before for the Worlds for failing to do so ruling them out of the Worlds and next years Olympics. Clearly some people get around it better than others. Countries with more support for WL most likely have a better chance of doing so than a US based lifter who has to support himself. You can't honestly be trying to say that you think anybody lifetime drug free won a medal last week? | |||
| » Pat Mendes (Go to post) | 15-11-2011 @ 13:40 | ||
| There are virtually no top guys from countries that test a lot - USA, UK, etc. I'm obviously not trying to argue that drugs are the only factor, that is ridiculous, there is no money in WL in these countries, little support, small participation rates, less coaches, no exposure etc and those factors could all arguably play a role. However when you have a guy already doing 207/240+, those concerns are irrelevant for him. It seems, from admittedly anecdotal sources, that the RUS, CHIN, IRAN etc lifters (ie the top lifters) do not get tested internally so they can be 'on' all year round, apart from at international comps or the occasional IWF out of comp testing. The UK and USA make a point of internally testing the s**t of out lifters year round, having to report a location once every few weeks that they'll be etc. What I am saying is that Mendes, by not having done a comp, missed out on all that potential testing when he was doing 207/240+. He then came off and qualified for nationals doing 175/210 (ish). This alerted him to WADA. He then did 175/210 (ish) at nationals, 175/210(ish) at Pan-Am's and then 172/*** at World's over the course of the next three months when he was open to being tested. By contrast Salimi did 217 at the Iranian nationals (no WR as not drug tested or international comp) and then 214 in Paris - presumably after being off for much less time than Mendes. Case in point the young Iranian superheavy from a few years ago who did a s**tload in winning junior worlds, 200+ snatch etc, then failed two drugs tests (at comps) and got a life ban. | |||
| » Pat Mendes (Go to post) | 15-11-2011 @ 11:21 | ||
JC said: Its a huge assumption, to assume the guy takes gear! Either way, the amont of comps he's done is that relevant to his time off, as (if, he indeed takes PEDS) he could take a drug that would be at of his system in a matter of days For some designer steriods, I'm sure that time period is even shorter True, but he won't just be tested at comps, once he competed for the first time and did well he'll be on the WADA radar and subject to random testing. Even more so when he won their nationals and got selected for the Pan-Am and World teams. I don't see the assumption really...if you want to win at WL you have to be on at some stage, simple as that. | |||
| » Pat Mendes (Go to post) | 15-11-2011 @ 10:44 | ||
Wigan said:My view on Pat: He was very possibly previously running free with the use of performance enhancing substances and lifted some massive weights - Good on him! He is now playing the game and lifting on the international stage, subjecting himself to the required doping controls, and his lifts have come down accordingly, BUT he is still lifting as best he can - Good on him!! I totally agree - fair play to the kid for busting a nut and trying. If he uses, then even more fair play to him really because he is trying to do what it takes to actually win. | |||
| » Pat Mendes (Go to post) | 15-11-2011 @ 10:34 | ||
Steve said: I have no idea how the testing in the US compares with other Countries - Pendlay and Broz are US weightlifting coaches, hardly a good source of impartial information. I do know just how strict it is in the UK and this is perhaps reflected in our results. The very best US lifters are currently lifting weights close to what the best UK lifters were doing pre "modern" testing which does make me wonder just how strict their testing really is. Whilst I agree that Pendlay and Broz might not be impartial, if you watch the Cal Strength vid's the WADA guy actually turns up sometimes. Broz lifters all lift with no club noted down next to their name at comps because he thinks he gets singled out. He posted on his youtube that at one comp there were x number of 'random tests' and all of them were done on his lifters! The UK standards seem to be equally, if not more so, exhaustive. Obviously it is not the only reason why the UK isn't pumping out champions, but it is a limiting factor (behind participation, support and administration in the UK example). Returning to the Mendes example, you must acknowledge the seemingly massive coincidence that as a gym lifter PRE ANY COMPS AND TESTING, he looked to be doing 207/240+, which are competitive lifts and would easily win the Pan-Ams and probably place in the snatch at Worlds and have a good chance at a podium total some years, then in competitions where he might get tested consistently does 175/205 ish - over a 50kg reduction in total. Might he have been injured the entire time? Possible - but if so and if it is obviously having such a dramatic affect on results, why risk further damage at this young age? What this 'injury' says about Broz's coaching approach aside, that seems far fetched to me. On the lack of experience count - if this concerned him then why did he not lift in more comps before hand? He seemingly actively avoided them, citing possibly wanting to lift for Brazil as the reason...(I wonder how their testing is?) Rather, it seems he stayed on as long as possible in an attempt to make a run at the olympics, unfortunately, he doesn't come off very well and hasn't made it. | |||
| » Pat Mendes (Go to post) | 15-11-2011 @ 09:38 | ||
Steve said: Over the past few years the Iranian has been OCT every year by the IWF as well as in competition testing. Why do you think the testing in the US is stricter than elsewhere? Because it is widely documented that it is. People like Pendlay and Broz have written in several places about being 'randomly' tested with outrageous frequency because the US takes its anti-doping VERY seriously and regulates itself. I don't see the Iranians having to deal with constant random tests from WADA, or at least the threat of them, at all times. Pendlay has also noted conversations with EU and Chinese coaches, all of whom have thought the idea of trying to compete seriously without drugs was laughable. The 207 snatch and 363 BS were both done before he had done any serious comps and therefore probably wasn't being tested because youtube vid's alone don't merit it. Vid a few weeks back of him squatting 300 so he seems to be on the boil there still, but I personally just don't see that not using straps and a shoulder injury would have made him perform consistently bad on both lifts for 6 months in competitions. If his clean was way in front of his snatch due to the straps issue then fine, but he doesn't make 205 look an easy clean sometimes - definitely not for someone who has cleaned 240+ on video pretty confidently and who has snatched 207. Weight loss is obviously not a factor, being held back by a dodgy jerk seems to be to an extent, but by far the most plausible explanation seems to be the one I forward above. | |||
| » Pat Mendes (Go to post) | 15-11-2011 @ 00:35 | ||
ranathari said: The Iranian SHW in the video above has supposedly been tested far more than Mendes because he's done more international competitions so I'm not entirely sure this line of argument is that valid. Saying that Mendes doesn't come off his cycles very well would be more valid but that presupposes he's doping anyway. I'm sure he has, but Mendes lifted at nationals a month or so ago to qualify for pan-ams, then at pan-ams, and then at worlds. Presumably he had to be prepared to be tested at all three so has been off for some time. I doubt Iran takes WADA as seriously as the US do in terms of internal testing, so they mainly have to worry about international comps - ie World's, Asian games and Olympics - so 1-3 times a year at most? | |||
| » Pat Mendes (Go to post) | 14-11-2011 @ 22:18 | ||
| Mendes lifts for the US and therefore undergoes much more strict drug testing than a lot of the other top guys. When he is 'on' and training, he seems like he would be very good - although he does have a very dodgy jerk, when he comes off he can't compete. Seems pretty simple. | |||