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WILLSANIcon...21-07-2020 @ 20:12 
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Trump will get another four years
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JimLiftsIcon...21-07-2020 @ 23:23 
that doesn't excite you?
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WILLSAN said:how many confirmed cases of people you personally know do you know of?


I know I'm not a known figure on here, but I know 7 personally. 2 were in hospital - one was a 27 year old ex winter olympic athlete that was very unlucky and the other in his 50s with some underlying issues (both now out). The rest are a combination of colleagues, family and friends, all of whom had symptoms (hence tests). They're better but I wouldn't say back to normal - most are now less fit than you would expect from 1 - 2 months off exercise.

Agree that masks seem silly to be brought in so late, but Corona is a roll of the dice - some have no symptoms, some react extremely badly and some don't seem to catch it at all despite regular contact with the infected. I don't want to take the chance personally!
HamIcon...22-07-2020 @ 09:54 
Ham but hey
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Rick said:
This is very much like saying "if you're worried about s**t in the drinking water supply, don't s**t in it, but let the rest of us get on with it." It doesn't stop the drinking water being full of s**t.
(And it is a choice. You don't have to wear a mask. You just can't go into enclosed public spaces. In that respect, it's much like clothes.)
Masks are principally to stop you passing it on, not to stop you catching it. That's why. End of.


But it's not like saying that really though is it. Someone not wearing a mask is not contaminating a vital resource. What is a person not wearing a mask contaminating? Please don't say "Air".


It's no longer a choice when it is made a law. I see both sides of the debate and have to say that forcing people to wear masks to protect others from a downgraded (as per the gov, to less harmful/deadly and contagious than swine flu) illness that is so far from deadly to the overwhelming majority is a lot bonkers in my opinion.

Take that with the WHO early research (along with other independent research) showing there is only a 0.9% chance of an a-symptomatic person passing it along, just adds to the insanity of it all.

The WHO even wrote mask wearing wasn't all that effective apart from keeping people compliant to other procedures in place, such as hand washing for example.

I am perfectly happy for any shops to step in and say hey these are our rules as a private company we have the right to require certain rules are adhered to, then a person has the choice to not shop there but to have a bizarre government make laws about it is plain wrong in my opinion and removes choice from the equation. Which is a huge over reach of power.
RickIcon...22-07-2020 @ 13:58 
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Ham said:
But it's not like saying that really though is it. Someone not wearing a mask is not contaminating a vital resource. What is a person not wearing a mask contaminating? Please don't say "Air".


What do you want me to say? This is a virus now thought to be transmitted mostly through aerosolised droplets, so yes, that is EXACTLY what you are contaminating.
HamIcon...22-07-2020 @ 14:06 
Ham but hey
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Genuinely interested to see that specific research as the previous studies I have read show that to be in very rare and specific circumstances. Usually in a medical setting unless you are standing inches from someone who has symptoms that sneezes directly at you. Or you happen to be a person that is in the habit of licking themselves or other objects soon after someone has put bodily fluid on them, which is weird but hey to each their own.

I spent time last week at one of the Royal National hospitals and spoke with medical staff who feel the mask situation is less than helpful and only specific masks, worn is a specific way will help protect a person in a specific situation.
HamIcon...22-07-2020 @ 14:23 
Ham but hey
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Not to mention that a face mask does zero to cover the eyes, a known entry point and breeding ground for virus due to the direct connection with respiratory organs. Possibly a more dangerous entry point due to the connection with the lymphatic system also? I wonder if that goes some way to explaining some of the apparent non respiratory organ issues?

Will a mask protect you from an infected sneezing person, possible, not probable as your eyes are susceptible.

Point being, basing laws on loose and early Science and media pressure is weak and wrong IMO.
HamIcon...22-07-2020 @ 14:34 
Ham but hey
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Some light reading also reveals that Covid Sars 2 has a specific protein spike for the exact receptors for it in human eyes.

But masks are cool at least for looking like a ninja. And yes, I wear one when needed.
WILLSANIcon...22-07-2020 @ 15:09 
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now that trump has endorsed mask wearing I wouldnt be surprised if the mainstream media pivoted to 'actually masks are useless and orange man bad'.

which would, in fact, be a 360 as the starting point was 'masks are useless and orange man bad'.

dannyboy73Icon...22-07-2020 @ 17:49 
Mask it or Casket !!
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and thats the truth. trump = bad. obama = saint. if only life were so simple...

WILLSAN said:now that trump has endorsed mask wearing I wouldnt be surprised if the mainstream media pivoted to 'actually masks are useless and orange man bad'.

which would, in fact, be a 360 as the starting point was 'masks are useless and orange man bad'.
RickIcon...22-07-2020 @ 19:51 
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Post Edited: 22.07.2020 @ 19:51 PM by Rick
Ham said:Genuinely interested to see that specific research as the previous studies I have read show that to be in very rare and specific circumstances. Usually in a medical setting unless you are standing inches from someone who has symptoms that sneezes directly at you. Or you happen to be a person that is in the habit of licking themselves or other objects soon after someone has put bodily fluid on them, which is weird but hey to each their own.

I spent time last week at one of the Royal National hospitals and spoke with medical staff who feel the mask situation is less than helpful and only specific masks, worn is a specific way will help protect a person in a specific situation.


You still seem to be thinking about masks protecting the wearer. They did a little, but not much. My mask is to protect you. I'd appreciate the same courtesy.

The understanding of the virus has changed, not for the first time, as you'd expect with a novel virus, which is why the WHO now recommend masks. A decent thread on why, with ample reference to papers, is here: http://twitter.com/jeremyphoward/status/1274036544387477504
HamIcon...23-07-2020 @ 09:41 
Ham but hey
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Thanks Rick,

the very first "study" states they were not looking for virus transmission and use a damp wash cloth held firmly against someones face. Not what a government or any person should be using to base their health decision on. Interesting for sure but very little to do with anything related to transmission of a specific virus.

Another one linked to "Surgical and hand-made masks, and face shields, generate several leakage jets, including intense backward and downwards jets that may present major hazards"


Another "The most common problem in all of these studies was a lack of reporting of viral circulation in the reference population, making interpretation and generalisability of their conclusions questionable." which seems like a rather large issue when studying virus spread in a population. No?


"Wearing a mask after illness onset of the primary case was not significantly protective"

"The risk of household transmission was 18 times higher with frequent daily close[b/]contact with the primary case" hardly a shopping situation.


"Community mask wearing, hand washing and social distancing are thought to be effective but the evidence is not clear."


"Accordingly, their protective effect, although suggestive, is not conclusive for airborne transmission of inhaled or inspired aerosols"
although the same page does say " If influenza virus had been expelled by normal breathing only, protection by an N95 mask for a 4-hour flight could approach 100%" which is something I suppose.

I am confident that the rest of the cited references are equally as inconclusive or irrelevant.

Point being, masks may well indeed work, however, the evidence to justify law changes and forced adherence is simply not there, irrelevant or crap Science that I have seen so far.

It'd be really simple to test properly:

Four groups 1) Control group 2) group that all wear masks 3) group that only the infected wears a mask 4) group that only the infected doesn't wear a mask.

Bung them in a room for 24 hours, then see who gets it and who doesn't. Wonder why that isn't being done?
RickIcon...23-07-2020 @ 10:48 
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Ham said:
Four groups 1) Control group 2) group that all wear masks 3) group that only the infected wears a mask 4) group that only the infected doesn't wear a mask.

Bung them in a room for 24 hours, then see who gets it and who doesn't. Wonder why that isn't being done?


Because it would never get past an ethics board, rightly.

What's your background that makes you feel competent to critique the science? I ask because, as a former research scientist with a PhD, I know I'm very rarely I that position.
WILLSANIcon...23-07-2020 @ 11:28 
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Trump will get another four years
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how dare you question a man of science!!!

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HamIcon...23-07-2020 @ 14:41 
Ham but hey
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Just an autodidact mostly I'm afraid. Doesn't take much to check a cited source and see if the results match what the people citing it says it does. Often times it doesn't, sadly.

You have a PHD and didn't see the conclusions/problems in the references you posted? Your opinion as someone with more research experience than me and a Doctorate, from the links provided, is that evidence is clear cut enough for an entire nation to have laws changed and penalties imposed?
dannyboy73Icon...23-07-2020 @ 17:19 
Mask it or Casket !!
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Post Edited: 23.07.2020 @ 19:11 PM by dannyboy73
my wife has a phd and has told me that most studies from China cant be replicated because of a culture of cheery picking data to skew figures...on top of that, sadly, this occurs in the UK as well because of the way science is funded (if you dont get results...you dont get funding and moreover, keep you job).

Moreover, dont take isolated published papers as 100% truthfull just because the people who wrote them have phds....the same as you dont trust MPs with your future or priests with you little children...

dont forget, the scientist went with the Oxford model which grossly exagerated the death toll in the UK. there were other experts that would have gone withe the Sweden model and we would all still have jobs... Moreover, the scientist dont agree but...they do cover their arses even if it causes economic disaster.

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