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Vaccine mandates

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lukiIcon...30-11-2021 @ 08:42 
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BigMacca said:
It's a good job that the FDA has absolutely zero involvement approving drugs in the UK (or anywhere outside of the USA)


This is not true. EMA used USA and Israeli tests to approve the mRNA vaccines. This is covered by this:
www.ema.europa.eu/en/human-regulatory/research-development/...

Vaccine bulk ingredients are covered by this:
www.ema.europa.eu/en/human-regulatory/research-development/...

This month Science journal reported Pfizer vaccine’s efficacy at preventing infection declined to 43%, Moderna’s vaccine dropped to 58%, and traditional vaccine J&J fell from 86% to 13% efficacy. This is why vaccines are normally tested for longer periods.
www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm0620#:~:text=For%20a...
macrothIcon...30-11-2021 @ 09:00 
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Post Edited: 30.11.2021 @ 09:01 AM by macroth
luki said:

This month Science journal reported Pfizer vaccine’s efficacy at preventing infection declined to 43%, Moderna’s vaccine dropped to 58%, and traditional vaccine J&J fell from 86% to 13% efficacy. This is why vaccines are normally tested for longer periods.
www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm0620#:~:text=For%20a...



But that's not what the article... Unhappy
Oh well. Another thread bites the dust, I guess.
LessThanLukeIcon...30-11-2021 @ 11:13 
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macroth said:I have been wondering about something which isn't clear to me from social media etc.

Those here who oppose the vaccine mandate or have no intention of taking the vaccine also oppose mask/occupancy/coronapass etc. mandates and restrictions of all types, right?


Not at all. I massively oppose vaccine mandates and passports (mostly because I think they're stupid and not based on logic) and my other half is not getting the vaccine but we will both happily wear masks where required, socially distance blah blah.

Some are reasonable, some aren't.
LessThanLukeIcon...30-11-2021 @ 11:13 
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Rick said:
Nonetheless, the vaccine is far lower risk than the virus, so why wouldn't you?


Because its not for plenty of people but as you've said we aren't to go down this rabbit hole.
BillwestIcon...30-11-2021 @ 11:27 
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Rick said:
Nonetheless, the vaccine is far lower risk than the virus, so why wouldn't you?


Did you read this article Rick?
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/nov/30/life-tragic-death-j...

Your chances of dying from covid are low, as many have said on here, but comparing the survival chances of those that have caught it, the unvaccinated are 32 times more likely to die than the vaccinated. A good reason to be vaccinated, in my opinion.
BigMaccaIcon...30-11-2021 @ 11:29 
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Post Edited: 30.11.2021 @ 11:30 AM by BigMacca
luki said:
This is not true. EMA used USA and Israeli tests to approve the mRNA vaccines.


Using trail data from international sources to help inform the EMA's decision making process is a long way from the FDA having direct influence over drug approval in the UK
BigMaccaIcon...30-11-2021 @ 11:41 
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Post Edited: 30.11.2021 @ 12:00 PM by BigMacca
luki said:
This month Science journal reported Pfizer vaccine’s efficacy at preventing infection declined to 43%, Moderna’s vaccine dropped to 58%, and traditional vaccine J&J fell from 86% to 13% efficacy. This is why vaccines are normally tested for longer periods.

I don't think anyone is under the impression that any of the vaccines effectivity prevent infection past when the antibody levels drop.

What they are incredibly good at is preventing serious infection/hospitalisation/death.

From the same article:

Vaccine effectiveness against death (VE-D) was:

81.7% (95% CI: 75.7% to 86.2%) for any vaccine;
73.0% (95% CI: 52.0% to 84.8%) for Janssen;
81.5% (95% CI: 70.7% to 88.4%) for Moderna;
84.3% (95% CI: 76.3% to 89.7%) for Pfizer-BioNTech

I can't see this thread lasting much longer...
RickIcon...30-11-2021 @ 12:48 
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Post Edited: 30.11.2021 @ 12:51 PM by Rick
LessThanLuke said:
Because its not for plenty of people but as you've said we aren't to go down this rabbit hole.


Let’s not. I believe you to be factually incorrect on the balance of the data as filtered through experts; you, naturally, don’t. L

BigMacca said:
I can't see this thread lasting much longer...


Indeed.
lukiIcon...30-11-2021 @ 13:10 
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Post Edited: 30.11.2021 @ 13:24 PM by luki
Yes, please lock the thread. Its daft.
lukiIcon...30-11-2021 @ 13:24 
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BigMacca said:
Using trail data from international sources to help inform the EMA's decision making process is a long way from the FDA having direct influence over drug approval in the UK

Only Northern Ireland used EMA reviewed trials. Britain doesn't have a cooperation agreement on medicine with US or EU that I'm aware of. Your own regulator decides.
www.ema.europa.eu/en/about-us/brexit-uk-withdrawal-eu/brexi...
lukiIcon...01-12-2021 @ 20:20 
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In the space of three weeks in Britain, 100 Covid cases were reported among individuals who are 60 or older. Out of those infections, 89.7% of people were fully vaccinated, while 3.4% were unvaccinated.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanepe/article/PIIS2666-7762(21)...
dannyboy73Icon...01-12-2021 @ 20:57 
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Post Edited: 01.12.2021 @ 21:16 PM by dannyboy73
But sadly, the vaccine makes no significant difference to transmission, Thats why the rules apply for the vaccinates and unvaccinated alike. With this in mind, it therefore makes countries applying vaccine passports appear very authoritarian indeed.

You are right though, very early on when the stas were broken into age and risk I and many became suspicious that things werent adding up and therefore was and remain against ANY restrictive measures. As time goes on its emerging that this is not quiet the plague that we were led to initially think. I think this thread indicates that most people are thinking along that line. (I understand though, that some see the vid as a threat to every ones life and are anxious as a result and are desperate for everyone to follow all the rules all the time).

Being that we now have such high amounts of heard immunity makes it even more strange to say the least that the head of the EU is now pushing for unification to make vaccines compulsory within the European union. Actually, this has made me quiet anxious as to what they are planning for us next. well this is how I see it and I want people to get an insight into how worried those of us who are not buying into this, whatever this is, are...me and my family are petrified as to what the future will look like and what rules we will be living under, petrified.

Hopefully I have attempted not to brake any house rules, if I have I apologise in advance...

macroth said:I have been wondering about something which isn't clear to me from social media etc.

Those here who oppose the vaccine mandate or have no intention of taking the vaccine also oppose mask/occupancy/coronapass etc. mandates and restrictions of all types, right?

What I mean is, I'm sure everyone agrees that masks, lockdowns and social distancing aren't viable long-term solutions and everyone has had enough of that; where we differ is between those who think something still needs to be done to stop or curb the spread (ie vaccines) and those who think any further measures are unnecessary.

I say this because I feel like I've been seeing posts (not here particularly, I don't think) by people complaining that vaccinated people aren't wearing masks or social distancing or whatever, and I'm thinking "well, isn't that the whole f**king point, or at least the end goal?"
BigMaccaIcon...01-12-2021 @ 22:57 
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Post Edited: 01.12.2021 @ 22:58 PM by BigMacca
dannyboy73 said:
Being that we now have such high amounts of heard immunity makes it even more strange to say the least that the head of the EU is now pushing for unification to make vaccines compulsory within the European union. Actually, this has made me quiet anxious as to what they are planning for us next. well this is how I see it and I want people to get an insight into how worried those of us who are not buying into this, whatever this is, are...me and my family are petrified as to what the future will look like and what rules we will be living under, petrified.
Hopefully I have attempted not to brake any house rules, if I have I apologise in advance...

I feel for you for being anxious/worried about the current situation. Being in that mindset for any length of time is not a pleasant thing for anyone to experience


dannyboy73 said:But sadly, the vaccine makes no significant difference to transmission, Thats why the rules apply for the vaccinates and unvaccinated alike. With this in mind, it therefore makes countries applying vaccine passports appear very authoritarian indeed.

The idea that the vaccines have zero effect on transmission is simply not true based on the evidence that has been published.

They reduce transmission in two ways:
  1. Whilst antibody levels are high, most people just won't get infected at all (the virus never has time to replicate and is dealt with at the site of entry e.g. in the nose)
  2. For those that do get infected (virus manages to replicate), the infections are dealt with far faster as your other immunee responses are primed to kick in (e.g. T-Cells), so the vaccinated person is only infections for a fraction of the time of an unvaccinated person

I know people like studies, here's one from the New England Journal of Medicine that found
that two doses of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine were 88% effective at preventing symptomatic infections, whereas the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine was 67% effective. A single dose of either vaccine was only 37% effective
[url=]http://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34289274[/url]
There are lots more, but everyone can use google as well as I can.

There was a couple of earlier studies that I'm aware of that were flawed in their design that muddied the water (they were detecting shedded RNA, both active and inactive. Someone who had successfully dealt with the virus can still be shedding inactive RNA for a while after they were no longer infectious), but the recent ones that I've seen are showing that the vaccines are pretty effective in reducing transmission (as well as dramatically reducing the chance of serious infection/death)

We're still having high case numbers because we went from lots of social distancing and mask-wearing to getting a chunk of people vaccinated and everyone rocking out with their cock out overnight.

Hopefully, the high vaccination/booster rate coupled with sensible measures (mask-wearing and social distancing) will be enough to avoid more stringent measures with whatever doom variant is coming next...

I'm sure Rick will be getting his lock and key out any moment now, he did state at the outset that the efficacy of the vaccines was not to be discussed on this thread...
RickIcon...02-12-2021 @ 07:33 
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I don't mind fact-based discussions, but I simply don't have the time and energy to come and keep countering misunderstandings and misinformation. I am grateful for your efforts, Macca.

The vaccines work remarkably well. They are remarkably safe. These are, at this point, simply facts. And this thread is done.

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