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Vaccine mandates

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EDCLARKEIconVaccine mandates24-11-2021 @ 13:29 
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i'd like to keep this just on the topic of whether you think governments should be able to instigate mandatory vaccinations and not what you think about the veracity of the covid vax
and also lets keep it nice folks , we all know how easy it is to take offence on the internet .

My position is that whatever your feelings about vaccinations either for or against you should definitely be against mandatory vaccinations as it is a massive overreach of Government power and what is currently happening in Australia and Austria and parts of the US is deeply worrying.

Lets discuss! (nicely)
macrothIcon...24-11-2021 @ 14:29 
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Current mandatory vaccinations in Europe:
https://ijponline.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13052-018-0504-y/tables/1

Various vaccines are required for school registration in other countries (e.g. some US States, some Canadian provinces, Australia...).

Various others are required for international travel:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_requirements_for_international_travel

So the basic principle of mandatory vaccination is hardly without precedent.

The question is whether or not you believe you need a certain percentage of the population to be vaccinated against a given disease, and what to do if you can't reach that percentage because too many people are refusing to take it.
RickIcon...24-11-2021 @ 14:58 
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Post Edited: 24.11.2021 @ 14:59 PM by Rick
As Macroth points out, mandatory vaccines are not new, standard across large parts of the world, and were uncontroversial among generations who remembered the toll of uncontrolled infectious diseases. Vaccine hesitancy is a luxury afforded to people who have forgotten to fear disease, and started to fear something else instead.

Membership of society carries responsibilities as well as rights. If people are not prepared to act responsibly, it is perfectly reasonable to limit their rights in return. Almost nobody fundamentally disagrees with this: the most obvious example of the principle is imprisoning lawbreakers.
RickIcon...24-11-2021 @ 15:00 
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Post Edited: 24.11.2021 @ 15:00 PM by Rick
EDCLARKE said:not what you think about the veracity of the covid vax


I would remind you all that THAT topic is closed, so yes, donít.
dannyboy73Icon...24-11-2021 @ 21:03 
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im not against vaccines. only an idiot would surely?

I am against mandatory vaccines.

I expect my vaccines to be time proven unless of course I am at a very high risk of the illness I'm being vaccinated against.

Moreover, vaccinating children against horrid childhood infections - thumbs up.
Vaccinating highly vulnerable individuals with there consent with early stage experimental drugs - thumbs up.

but With 98% of the UK having antibodies - vaccinating children? I would argue...there is something sinister at hand.

Moreover, 7.8 million people in the UK (unvaxed) have serious trust issues with the government(s). A mandate of a weak argument would destroy any inkling of trust left.
dannyboy73Icon...24-11-2021 @ 21:09 
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And thanks Ed for this thread (as long as it lasts)

There are a lot of people out there who have been seriously disturbed (myself included) by the cries for vax them all or lock them in camps by what we thought were good people.
KevC86Icon...24-11-2021 @ 21:21 
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Rick said:If people are not prepared to act responsibly, it is perfectly reasonable to limit their rights in return. Almost nobody fundamentally disagrees with this: the most obvious example of the principle is imprisoning lawbreakers.


The trouble here of course (and the reason the other thread is closed) is who gets to determine what is responsible?

To use the law breaker example, almost no one is against the basic principle of imprisoning law breakers, but plenty would support executing those who break specific laws (rapists and paedophiles being the least controversial i imagine) and would suggest there should be no punishment for those who break other laws (speeding or running a red light which hasn't resulted in harm to anyone else).

A debate for another thread perhaps.

For the topic at hand, I've no real issue with mandatory vaccination but i think the UK government will encounter a government ending problem if they try to push a mandatory covid programme.
The vaccine obviously doesn't have the support (or you wouldn't need to mandate it), faith in the government is low across huge sectors of the electorate and the fact further lockdowns are still being considered suggests the vaccine has been at best of limited effectiveness.
Not a strong stance from which to try and force 9 million adults in to something they don't wish to do.
BigMaccaIcon...24-11-2021 @ 22:14 
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KevC86 said:
The trouble here of course (and the reason the other thread is closed) is who gets to determine what is responsible?

This one is really easy to answer, parliament will decide what is reasonable and what isn't with regard to laws.

That's how our system is designed.

The man on the street can make their voice heard at the ballot box
dannyboy73Icon...25-11-2021 @ 04:30 
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Post Edited: 25.11.2021 @ 04:46 AM by dannyboy73
What will the fallout be for nhs/ social care?

With most having antibodies and residents having had 2 or 3 jabs, zero difference between vaxed and unvaxed with regards to transmission, the argument that these staff are selfish isnt really washing.

But more pressing is the question, how will these vacancies be replaced? When encouraging people to work in health care was hard even before the vid.

I have family and friends intending to leave at the 'last hour'. Some have already jumped ship. Two of which are at retirement age anyway and therefore will not feel forced by economic pressures to comply. they are waiting it out.

I have 2 family members who already had vid, one twice. They want to know why the cannot have antibody tests and why the government is so keen to give them an experimental injection of which no less than 3 have been needed in less than a year?
KevC86Icon...25-11-2021 @ 05:21 
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BigMacca said:
This one is really easy to answer, parliament will decide what is reasonable and what isn't with regard to laws.
That's how our system is designed.
The man on the street can make their voice heard at the ballot box


You've either misunderstood, or are deliberately misrepresenting, how our system works.

Parliament introduce the laws of course, but they have no meaningingful power to ensure they are carried out.

A recent example being the lockdown fines.
Two separate pieces of legislation backed the various fines associated with breaking lockdown regulations and the government made it clear they supported enforcing these rules.
Yet courts and the CPS decided otherwise with the result being that as of around May this year every single fine which got challenged was quashed.

Without public confidence and the proper backing parliament do not get to determine what is responsible. Ours decided throwing billions of pounds at track and trace was responsible, how many of the electorate agree that was a responsible use for their tax money?
unit94Icon...25-11-2021 @ 08:08 
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Initially I was against it however other vaccines are of course mandatory so now I'm not sure.

I do think everyone should have the vaccine however.
RickIcon...25-11-2021 @ 08:21 
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Post Edited: 25.11.2021 @ 08:23 AM by Rick
Danny, this is NOT THE PLACE TO DISCUSS THE VERACITY (or efficacy) OF THE COVID VACCINE. If you continue I shall ban you
EDCLARKEIcon...25-11-2021 @ 09:39 
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Post Edited: 25.11.2021 @ 10:02 AM by EDCLARKE
https://ijponline.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13052-018-0504-y/tables/1


that's an interesting link thanks for posting that .
interesting to see that vaccines are mandated in some countries , but it seems in the majority they are not, and making this one mandatory would be a big departure from the norm.(interestingly Austria being one of those countries).

i think an important question for us all to think about is to put ourselves in the position of those on the other side of the argument , on the one side you have the argument that the vaccines keep us all safe and it is the public responsibility to have the vaccines for the greater good of society. The other side of the argument is that it's not the governments place to mandate you to put something into your body that you dpn't want , especially if you do not trust your own Government to tell you the truth or act in your best interests , and this is seen particularly in minority communities who have lower levels of trust in Government .
as you can see from the chart Macroth kindly posted Vaccines have never been mandated here its always been a matter of choice and the same is true across most of western Europe with the exception of France and Italy. To mandate them now would be a very large departure from what has gone before .
My question for people those that are pro vaccine mandate would be how would you feel if the government mandated something that you disagreed with and didn't want , especially if applied to your children
You can see from what is happening In Australia that there have been some moves to make some of the emergency covid laws more permanent (and also in Scotland although they have pulled back from it now after public outcry)

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/nov/12/victorias-pa...

https://headtopics.com/uk/scottish-government-wants-to-make-emergency-covid-powers-permanent-21394974

for me this argument is more about what sort of government you want , for me i want one with less control and as little interference as possible and i say that whilst acknowledging that without some state control we go back to the dark ages .
dannyboy73Icon...25-11-2021 @ 11:01 
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Post Edited: 25.11.2021 @ 11:02 AM by dannyboy73
its quiet difficult to argue a case for vaccines without the whole context...not all vaccines are equal, so as to speak.

However, reminded of the golden rule and therefore, understood Rick.


Rick said:Danny, this is NOT THE PLACE TO DISCUSS THE VERACITY (or efficacy) OF THE COVID VACCINE. If you continue I shall ban you
BigMaccaIcon...25-11-2021 @ 11:50 
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Post Edited: 25.11.2021 @ 16:30 PM by BigMacca
KevC86 said:
You've either misunderstood, or are deliberately misrepresenting, how our system works.
Parliament introduce the laws of course, but they have no meaningingful power to ensure they are carried out.
A recent example being the lockdown fines.
Two separate pieces of legislation backed the various fines associated with breaking lockdown regulations and the government made it clear they supported enforcing these rules.
Yet courts and the CPS decided otherwise with the result being that as of around May this year every single fine which got challenged was quashed.
Without public confidence and the proper backing parliament do not get to determine what is responsible. Ours decided throwing billions of pounds at track and trace was responsible, how many of the electorate agree that was a responsible use for their tax money?

Not wanting to get into a massive argument about this, but I've misrepresented nothing.

Parliament create the laws.

They might be stupid laws that police/courts choose not to enforce but laws they remain non the less.

Take the cluster f**k of UK legislation around knives as a great example of horribly written legislation.
If any of you are walking around with a Leatherman multi-tool in your pocket/bag, then you are most likely to be illegally carrying a locking blade.

However, unless you are running around pointing it at people, no police officer is going to arrest you for carrying it

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