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RickIconBench programmes12-02-2007 @ 20:27 
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I am a bench-only guy
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Post Edited: 12.02.2007 @ 20:30 PM
I'm thinking of abandoning the bench programme I've been using for the last year or so - it's given me about 20kg, but I'm not sure if it's going to give me a lot more. I've been doing a heavyish single or double, followed by two sets of reps, and then two sets of reps on the incline dumbbell bench. The single starts 20kg below my PB and goes up each week by 5kg (unless failed), the reps start 15kg below the single and go 10,8,6,4 over the four weeks, the inclines are pretty similar to the flat reps. I bench once per week.

So, what to do instead? Some things that spring to mind as possibilities:

(a) 5x5 for a while followed by mostly singles for a while, a la Fat Pete.
(b) 3 or 5 singles followed by 5x5, a la Fazc.
(c) Smolov jr, benching twice per week over six weeks. This might kill me, but if I'm fairly conservative it looks like it might be doable.
(d) this "add fifty" thing: http://www.joeskopec.com/add50.xls (excel spreadsheet)
(e) this Ed Coan routine: http://www.joeskopec.com/edcoanbench.html

The "add50" looks like it starts heavy but not completely insane, and I like the fact that it adjusts itself based on how many reps you get from the third week on. Which is just as well, because optimistic as I am I can't see a 20% improvement over seven weeks, really. Like Smolov Jr, this is heavy twice weekly, and so might kill me fairly quickly.

The Coan routine would be less than I'm currently doing until about week 8, and then gets hard fast, looking for 11% improvement over 12 weeks. Which is probably more plausible - though I'm not sure if I'll get stronger doing less for that first month and a half... (EDIT: of course that Wednesday 2x10x80-90kg session might make me stronger). I sort of fancy this.

What do you think? What do you do? What worked best for you? And, summing it all up, what would you do if you were me.
CuddlesIcon...12-02-2007 @ 20:51 
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First of all, benching heavy twice a week is childs play. At our strength levels its your joints that are going to take the pounding well before your CNS does. IMO, too many people are limited by what they've read on the net by come cyberguru. Granted you shouldnt go from one session a week to four, but benching twice a week just isnt that hard. It really isnt.

That being said, I quite like the look of the Coan routine but id adjust it quite a lot, if it were for me. Firstly, id keep day one pretty much how it is written, but I have a distinction between narrow grip and close grip. At those weights id want to be going close grip. Seeing as you do incline, id either do it as written, or write something similar using dumbells. Id add lat work but not a lot else.

For the second day, id switch the sets and reps around. So when it says 2 sets of 10 reps, id do 10 sets of 2 reps. But im like that. Id add in dumbell shoulder press on this day, and id add 5x5 on something like board press, or floor press or something along those lines. I wouldnt do the weighted dips, but id do some volume tricep work, pushdowns, extensions etc (your elbows might not like all of this so bear that in mind).

Hell thats just what id do on the Coan routine, I havent even looked at the others.....
CuddlesIcon...12-02-2007 @ 20:52 
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Post Edited: 12.02.2007 @ 20:54 PM
Also, I like the smolov junior and actually got a bodybuilder friend of mine to do it twice a week for bodybuilding (for bench). He liked it.

You could happily plug away at the 5x5 or Faz variations (Doug Hepburn stuff) for quite some time too. Id probably wave load it so you dont need to keep taking delaod weeks. In fact a friend did really well over about a year wave loading his bench, only taking a light week every 12, basically doing 3, 4 week waves, a week off, 3, 4 weeks waves, repeat....
RickIcon...12-02-2007 @ 21:17 
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I am increasingly thinking I'm going to try the Coan routine, actually - especially since realising that it is *six* working rep sets on day one, not the four I currently do - so is a definite upgrade. I'd do the first nine weeks without deloading and then maybe deload before heading into the last three, depending on how f**ked I feel or don't. The change from db incline to bb incline will do me good anyway.

I'll probably keep the day two as written, since I like reps on bench anyway and would want to keep them in somewhere, and I'll certainly do dumbbell shoulder press too. This'll all be on squat day, after squatting. Might do volume tricep work (pushdowns worked well for me) on this day, or maybe on Friday.

So, possible new routine looks like this:

Sunday: Coan bench day 1, latwork.
Monday: interval cardio
Wednesday: Squat 5x5, Coan bench day 2, DB shoulders, possible triceps, latwork.
Friday: Jackson deadlift, latwork, possibly triceps.

Keep opinions coming!

Having done basically the same routine for all lifts for almost a year, I'm suddenly abandoning it everywhere. I feel liberated.
RickIcon...12-02-2007 @ 21:20 
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I take your point about benching more than once, too. Latwork thrice weekly has helped to make the point to me that I have, in fact, been being a bit of a f**king wuss.

I know I ought to know what wave loading is, but I don't think I do.
FazcIcon...13-02-2007 @ 00:45 
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Post Edited: 13.02.2007 @ 00:52 AM
Originally posted by Rick...What do you think? What do you do? What worked best for you? And, summing it all up, what would you do if you were me.


Nice suggestions by Olly as always. The wave loading is nice, and the cycles can work well for some. I have always preffered going all out, then deloading and found progress better that way.

Soooo, what i'd ask is for you to take a look through your training log and identify what type of routine generally gives you better results. Do cycles work for you? Do you get better results from going all out, most of the time? or is there something else?

Also, look at what assistance you need. I know for me, I absolutely must have shoulder work as a priority. If thats out I will stagnate. So an automatic choice for me is to Bench heavy one day and then Press heavy the other.

Couple of questions there then.

1) What type of routine has shown better progress for you in the past?

2) Has any particular assistance exercises, proven very beneficial for you?

It's not a definite answer yet, as i'm not a fan of cookie-cutter routines. They always seem to mess up. What i'd suggest if you were dead set on the Coan routine is to rework the poundages yourself, start from the end and work backwards so you can work a reasonable goal.

Faz
RobIcon...13-02-2007 @ 13:13 
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Firstly, well done for acknowledging the need for change. Your program obviously worked but it wasn't going to forever.

I don't think you have to go on a written routine as such, I think adding a few different assistance exercises and just increasing frequency is the key here (although this is what a lot of the routines will actually have you do).

I would consider board presses and another tricep exercises (pressdowns or extensions). We know that your OH is pretty strong, yet you do very little tricep work. So it seems to me that now is the time for you to concentrate on them much like you have your lats. The situation is very similar as well - you can batter your triceps just like you can your lats.

Speed work is also an option as opposed to a repetition effort day. Some flat DB bench for the pecs could also be useful (though I imagine you can probably use the 50s already in which case you're not going to have much room for progression).

Anyway, it's very refreshing to see you embracing different routines and such like. You will make a lot of progress very quickly if you continute with this attitude.
DavidIcon...13-02-2007 @ 14:48 
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Originally posted by Fazc...

Also, look at what assistance you need. I know for me, I absolutely must have shoulder work as a priority. If thats out I will stagnate. So an automatic choice for me is to Bench heavy one day and then Press heavy the other.



Interesting, i am terribly weak on shoulders. Perhaps i'll stick some more presses in my routine.

Good luck Rick. You certainly shouldnt take any advice of me though.
CuddlesIcon...13-02-2007 @ 14:56 
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Dave, have a think about dumbell shoulder press, for something like 5x5. Me and Adam used them a lot last year and both nailed 300lb+ raw at the NW. Id put at least some of that strength down to dumbell shoulder press.
RickIcon...13-02-2007 @ 18:59 
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Fazc, they are excellent questions and the reason I started this thread is that I don't really have an answer. For most of my lifting history I've done, essentially, HIT. Because, I guess, I trained in a gym run by and populated by Dorian fans back in the 80s, before my "ten-year rest period". It worked well in that I was bigger and stronger than anyone my age I knew, I suppose, but in retrospect that was saying little. I just don't have enough experience, then, to know what is a good idea and what isn't.

One thing I've never really done is the sort of sub-max-effort work that any of these routines would have me doing early on, and I've also never done as much volume as any of them would have me on. I think one major reason my bench has improved over the last year or so is that I'm doing more work than I was, and that needs to be taken further.

I'd already pretty much decided that shoulder press db was going to go to 5x5. Doubly sure of that now.

Basically, for the period that I have logs for, I've been doing much the same routine other than introducing the heavy singles (early in that period). And before that, I got fairly quickly to where I was (without a powerlifting mindset at all) and then spent a couple of years on *very* slow improvements.

I think the next year needs to be a period of experimentation for me; try lots of different things and see what happens with each.
CuddlesIcon...13-02-2007 @ 21:17 
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If thats the case, id start to be real anal with your log. Note down anything that you think is relevant. If you dont know if its relevant or not right it down, the fact that you dont know it isnt probably means it is.

Also, make sure you give everything a good go, experimentation doesnt give you the right to become a chronic routine changer.Grin

Also, one thing I would say is that I wouldnt mind betting you could do all of those routines, one after the other and make a pb with all of them. The real key is to be consistant. Dont miss workouts, dont put in half arsed efforts and before you start a routine, believe that it will work, if you dont, chances are it wont.
RickIcon...13-02-2007 @ 22:19 
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I've been keeping a fairly detailed log since just before I started training around you guys - and will be continuing. Before that I never bothered, since I was essentially going to failure with pretty much the same weights each week - I started logging so I could remember what I did a month ago the last time I was at the same place in the cycle!

I think you're exactly right about being able to get fresh gains from each routine, Olly, and I was pretty much planning to run different routines back to back for a while. Multiple new PBs would be good. They're going to come on deads and squats, and I want them on bench too.

And yes, I'll be giving each one whole-hearted commitment. After all, I need to stay ahead of Joni on bench and Rob on squats, and close to him on deads - there's the competition to keep me honest!
FazcIcon...14-02-2007 @ 00:46 
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Post Edited: 14.02.2007 @ 00:48 AM
Originally posted by Olly...If you dont know if its relevant or not right it down, the fact that you dont know it isnt probably means it is.

...

Also, make sure you give everything a good go, experimentation doesnt give you the right to become a chronic routine changer.Grin


Bang on.

I write down everything in my logs. I used to even write down stuff about my sex drive, of course since i've always been a raging ball of testosterone Grin I don't bother with that anymore. However even that info was useful in judging when I was edging towards overtraining.

The second point too, give the routine a couple of months then evaluate.

Originally posted by Rick...One thing I've never really done is the sort of sub-max-effort work that any of these routines would have me doing early on, and I've also never done as much volume as any of them would have me on. I think one major reason my bench has improved over the last year or so is that I'm doing more work than I was, and that needs to be taken further.


Obviously i'm biased, but i'd suggest the 5x1, 5x5 routine. I come from a similar lifting background to you, being involved in HIT, THG and HGRT. This kind of training really set me free. I've always been happy to go all out in a sessions, but I used to hit walls really bad. Overtrain to the point of making myself sick, and twitchy. I tried the Coan routine, the Wave routines, Smolov, Smolov Jr, the +50 Bench routine but it was just too much of a change to what I KNEW worked for me. As such, those routines never worked for me and I did give them a damn good try.

When I finally started to implement the deloading weeks I found I could go pretty much all out and do a considerable amount of volume, with the guaranteed rest every 3rd of 4th week. My joints and my strength got better and better. I remember it took me 4-5 years to hit a 180kg Squat, then 200kg came 2 months later!

Usually the singles are done with as much weight as I can manage too, this see's me on the Bench for about an hour or more most Mondays. Which is how I can get around the work hard and long problem, I tend to rest a lot, or superset lat and bicep work to rest my press muscles.

Not a huge Bencher myself, but after years of stagnating on a sub-100kg Bench this kinda of stuff has worked well for me.

I just don't have enough experience, then, to know what is a good idea and what isn't.


Not a bad thing! You know what has worked for you in the past. More than many can say.
Funky_monkeyIcon...28-03-2017 @ 01:51 
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I found that my bench responded best to plenty volume (5x8ish reps mainly, as opposed to a ton of doubles/triples)

I find trawling through my old logs helps best as different people respond differently. What works for one person might not work for others.
matthewvcIcon...28-03-2017 @ 13:40 
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Funky_monkey said:I found that my bench responded best to plenty volume (5x8ish reps mainly, as opposed to a ton of doubles/triples)

I find trawling through my old logs helps best as different people respond differently. What works for one person might not work for others.


i doubt many get best results on old school once per 7 days.
the continuous DOMs from such infrequent training is bad enough.

I'd say generally:

at least once every 4 days
lots of sets in 2-5 rep range around 70-85% range, with a few heavier double/singles
lift mainly within 'training maxes'; that is no excessive psyching, grinding/butt off bench etc reps.
ensure heaviest reps are done to strict competition standard (i got slack here and lost a few kilos when judging was strict last comp)

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